Urban Vision goes after Fansubbing Group

TekkaRepliroid Zero · Post by **TekkaRepliroid Zero** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 8:19 pm

I've seen fansub ethics deterioration developing since before the digi-sub era. It happened when it was VHS or nothing, although it was easier to control that format. This is part of the reason I have an issue with digi-subs.
Before I understood how the business actually works, y'know, when I was 14 or something, I hated companies and hailed fansubbers like other ignorant people. As long as they're ignorant, it's not serious. If they are knowingly stirring shit, then it's a problem.
I hope AJ gets a kick in the ass. They must be sitting fairly pretty to be able to just spend all that time fansubbing for nothing. Who had the rich daddies?

aaronlye · Post by **aaronlye** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:01 pm

The ethics and legality of fansubs have been discussed to death in countless forums everywhere, but I shall again try to give an alternative perspective.

Granted, fansubs started out primarily as a North American phenomenon (the standard method of anime distribution varying in other parts of the world - like here in Asia the method of choice being piracy, courtesy of those wacky people in Hong Kong and Taiwan), but it really isn't the case any more, is it? Today, fansubs have international appeal and international distribution. There are, after all, other English-speaking territories in the world where a North American licensed title means nothing (literally, since the region code difference would prevent it from being of any use), so by the current "ethical standard" of anime fansubs, wouldn't it still be ethical to produce for and distribute in that territory, as long as no local license has been secured? What do you say to someone who says that? Should we go to the other extreme and say that all fansubs are technically unethical, since they are all technically licensed in Japan? If not, then what makes a North American license different?

It just doesn't apply so well in today's context. It may have worked back in 1983, but 2003 might just be in need of an updated Guide to Fansub Ethics. Just a thought.

EarthCurrent · Post by **EarthCurrent** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:17 pm

aaronlye wrote:The ethics and legality of fansubs have been discussed to death in countless forums everywhere, but I shall again try to give an alternative perspective.

Granted, fansubs started out primarily as a North American phenomenon (the standard method of anime distribution varying in other parts of the world - like here in Asia the method of choice being piracy, courtesy of those wacky people in Hong Kong and Taiwan), but it really isn't the case any more, is it? Today, fansubs have international appeal and international distribution. There are, after all, other English-speaking territories in the world where a North American licensed title means nothing (literally, since the region code difference would prevent it from being of any use), so by the current "ethical standard" of anime fansubs, wouldn't it still be ethical to produce for and distribute in that territory, as long as no local license has been secured? What do you say to someone who says that? Should we go to the other extreme and say that all fansubs are technically unethical, since they are all technically licensed in Japan? If not, then what makes a North American license different?

It just doesn't apply so well in today's context. It may have worked back in 1983, but 2003 might just be in need of an updated Guide to Fansub Ethics. Just a thought.

In this case it comes down to where the server is located. AJ's website is North American based, therefore UV has the right to request that they remove the links to the licensed title. If AJ were operating their servers out of Taiwan or "Sealand" or some other place that has not signed onto the Berne agreement, then UV wouldn't have much legal leverage.

If people in those other "English-speaking territories" want anime so bad and feel abused when Anime is licensed in the U.S., they should set up their own servers and make their own fansubs instead of griping that they are picked on when things are licensed in the U.S.. 'Nuff said.

aaronlye · Post by **aaronlye** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 11:02 pm

You don't have to get worked up about it - I'm just pointing out that the situation today isn't so clear-cut anymore.

I'm not saying I condone AJ's actions in this case, nor am I saying Urban Vision doesn't have the right to request what it did - I wasn't even commenting on that issue, since I thought it was clear I was referring to fansubs in a general sense.

Besides, I'm not sure what good that solution would have anyway (interestingly enough, that always seems to be the first thing that gets thrown back at anyone who brings up the "international" factor). North American residents will still be able to access fansubs done elsewhere(and there certainly are non-American fansubbers - offhand, I can recall a group called popngo that subs Gundam SEED in Chinese pretty quickly) and you're pretty much back to square one.

I agree that there must be an ethical standard - it's just that I find the current standard not as workable or as valid as it used to be. Futile as it may seem, the ideal situation would be to target the audience rather than the fansubbers - to get people to realise they need to support the licensed stuff. I've made it a point to purchase every series (of which I have fansubs) that's been licensed locally in this country, and I try to make up for the rest by purchasing related merchandise for series that haven't had an official local release.

EarthCurrent · Post by **EarthCurrent** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:08 am

The problem is that too many people think it is their "right" these days to have access to free anime. What good is an ethic if the "fans" themselves don't abide by it?

Garylisk · Post by **Garylisk** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:04 am

Yeah. My friend Josh just won't be ethical at all. He spends all his money on DVDs, so he thinks that since he spends all his money and still can't get all the anime he wants, that that somehow justifies his downloading of liscensed anime. I always say "Dude, you're still just adding to the problem." His response is always "I'll end up buying it anyway one of these days.. and you KNOW I don't share anything over the net becase I am on dialup."

Of course, he also makes copies of all his anime CD's for other friends of his.... so he's just adding to the problem that way.

The only liscensed show I ever downloaded was I, My Me, Strawberry Eggs. After watching the first DVD, I downloaded the rest.

BTW, is SaiKano liscensed? I know someone who has all of it, and I am dying to see it, but if it's liscensed I dunno if I wanna get copies of it...

EarthCurrent · Post by **EarthCurrent** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:09 am

Garylisk wrote:BTW, is SaiKano liscensed? I know someone who has all of it, and I am dying to see it, but if it's liscensed I dunno if I wanna get copies of it...

No it isn't. But it is one of those titles that is more of a "when" than "if" in terms of licensing. Plus, the Region 2 disks have subtitles already on them, so the purpose of a fansub is sort of unneeded.

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:06 am

I've never downloaded fansubs before, but I have been scoping prices for some animes I doubt will be licensed any time soon. I can see why we should support the companies that bring the anime and distribute it for us viewers (speaking from the US), but there *are* animes that I doubt the companies are going to buy - not for years, if ever. So, is it better to hold onto your ethic and wait a couple of short years and hope that a company here purchases the US rights to the anime you've been longing for, or can you get it from the only people selling it with translations?

Fansubbers, the ones I've looked at (I haven't searched any in the US, mostly the ones I've seen were Chinese and Japanese fansubs) are open about what they're doing. Their websites aren't hidden, so what's wrong with buying something from them if there *isn't* a US license for it? I know once the anime reaches the US there's no excuse to get the fansubs anymore, but I don't think you should have to wait for the dubbers to do their work before you can get anime - that limits the field. I for one fully intend to purchase a number of animes that I *have* waited over a year for - in hopes of that ever elusive licensing. Time's too short. Sure, if I had bought a few seasons fansubbed and then there's a US version, I'll buy the newer version without hurting the companies who brought it into my reach, but I'm not going to wait around for them.

Just think, there were fans for many animes in the US long before the animes were officially released - and that is spawned in great part by fansubs and the people who watch them and talk about them and share them to create the fanbase. I'm all for killing off the people still producing fansubs aimed at the US for animes that have been licensed for US distribution. But I wouldn't diss fansubs in general, it's too much like dissing 'non-licensed in America' animes. Let me toss out a few names and tell me how many of these are on the 'when' rather than 'if' lists - and how long a 'when' we're talking about: Ai no Kusabi, Bronze, Fujimi Orchestra, Kasho no Tsuki, Kizuna, just to name a few. And if these *are* licensed, or are on the 'when = soon' list, by all means do let me know - I haven't seen any hint of an emminent US entry for any of them.

EarthCurrent · Post by **EarthCurrent** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:44 am

Arigatomyna wrote:Fansubbers, the ones I've looked at (I haven't searched any in the US, mostly the ones I've seen were Chinese and Japanese fansubs) are open about what they're doing. Their websites aren't hidden, so what's wrong with buying something from them if there *isn't* a US license for it?

One) You do not buy fansubs. They are fan productions. If you are paying for them you are getting ripped off.
Two) What you seem to be refering to are Hong Kong/Taiwan Anime Bootlegs. Spending money on these is giving money to the East Asian Mafia. That's right, Asian gangs control bootlegging of music, movies, and anime in Asia, and when you buy one of their products you are supplementing their other less flavorable activities like prostitution, drug dealing, murder, extortion, blackmail. But if that doesn't bother you...just put your credit card in an envelope and mail it to them with your blessings.

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:52 pm

Ah, so if it isn't subbed in the US, it's bootleg, rather than fansub, right? I admit, I don't know much about the two, but I certainly wouldn't want to be a part of anything like what you describe. To think, anime fans giving rise to crime like that - and those sellers do make a lot of money with their large websites. I'm surprised they haven't been shut down, especially the ones in Japan - where the actual creators are located. But that's fine, I'm glad you explained the difference. Fansubs are free, then. I can see where that would bother US license holders a great deal - trying to sell something people get for free. ^_^ So the best bet would be to hold out for a non-subbed japanese version of the things US buyers wouldn't touch, right? And you learn more japanese that way.