Patriotism! ... and health care ...?

[drewaconclusion]

mm, the problem isn't that congressmen aren't doing what they are supposed to do, the problem is that they are the voice of "the people" and "the people" are stupid.
/dictatorship

That's some scary stuff... you do realize you are "the people" right? I love America, I accept it with all it's good and bad. And I'm grateful I have the right to complain about the things I hate and hopefully, our way of life isn't altered. I certainly do hope you aren't inferring that America should be a dictatorship.

Should be? Who are you kidding? While it may not be a dictatorship literally; it's getting to the point where it might as well be. Actually, authoritarianism or capitalist republic seem a bit more appropriate in my mind. Anyhow, the government's gone down a route to instill fear of itself amongst the people; when it should be the other way around, seeing as how the government's supposed to be a tool of the people for our mutual benefit. And let's face it, corporations and the like have much more say in the government than we ever will at this rate. I mean, realistically, we aren't a pure democracy by any stretch.

While I'm ranting, I'm really not liking that they're labeling all this "political incivility" as "domestic terrorism". I may not agree with their philosophy for why they're "committing domestic terrorism", but I can't blame someone so unhappy with the government for doing it. Lest we forget that our country was founded upon it no less; although, these days it's no longer politically convenient to call it by its real name, revolution.

Anyhoo, I'm going to shut up now because I'm sure someone's going to get enraged over this and call me an idiot or uninformed, etc. etc.

[CodeZTM]

To be honest, the united states has NEVER been a democracy. We're really a republic with a democratic facade. >__>

corporations and the like have much more say in the government than we ever will at this rate.

Technically, yes. But corporations can only get you so many votes before the "people" boot your ass out of office if you ignore your constituents too much.

Can you say "Mike Huckabee" anybody? [Is there any wonder why Arkansas didn't vote/support for him in the presidential election? Because he blantantly ignored everything Arkansas wanted. And what should have been an automatic state for him turned into... Not]

Plus, we have all those fancy smancy "term life" that boots people out of power after so many years, as to not allow that to happen.

And really, it's the media that gives most of the "scare power" to the government, and not so much the government itself.

[drewaconclusion]

And really, it's the media that gives most of the "scare power" to the government, and not so much the government itself.

And what of the Patriot Act? And who's to say the media isn't being fed things to say? Watch enough of the American media and it all begins to feel like they all say the same thing...

Technically, yes. But corporations can only get you so many votes before the "people" boot your ass out of office if you ignore your constituents too much.

Yeah, then they just pay off the next person in line.

[CodeZTM]

And what of the Patriot Act? And who's to say the media isn't being fed things to say? Watch enough of the American media and it all begins to feel like they all say the same thing...

I don't know enough about the Patriot Act for me to truly delve into it, but from what I've been reading and hearing, it's been losing a lot of its original power with the new democratic order in power. Trust me, the Democrats [the very definition of Civil Rights] are not going to let that abomination stay around FOREVER.

And the "media feeding" just sounds a little conspiracy theorist for me to even discuss.

Yeah, then they just pay off the next person in line.

Not all politicians take the payments. Plus, there's a limit on how much corporations can give to public officials. AND it has to go to their campainging. They can't just "gift" money or supplies to politicians for them to use willy-nilly. There are obvious conflicts of interest involved there if it worked like that.

Besides, "corporations" aren't all evil, maniacal entities like you're thinking they are. All they care about are favorable tax laws and making sure they don't lose their common interests in terms of the economy. Most corporations could give two shits about civil rights and the likes. And they definitely have ZERO say in the constitution, which is where our civil liberties lie, and I assure you they have no interest in changing anytime soon. [Fact of the matter is that changing the Constitution is practically impossible, save for a rebellion or massive movement]

[downwithpants]

mm, the problem isn't that congressmen aren't doing what they are supposed to do, the problem is that they are the voice of "the people" and "the people" are stupid.
/dictatorship

That's some scary stuff... you do realize you are "the people" right? I love America, I accept it with all it's good and bad. And I'm grateful I have the right to complain about the things I hate and hopefully, our way of life isn't altered. I certainly do hope you aren't inferring that America should be a dictatorship.

yeah, but i'm not stupid... or self-righteous :p. i was being a little sarcastic, but my point is that democracy/republics have disadvantages compared to dictatorships and sometimes those disadvantages are painfully obvious. i'm not seriously recommending totalitarianism over democracy, and i'm not trying to belittle the fortune we have to be living in a free state, but sometimes we come out with bad outcomes when policy makers listen to the public... (although this was cheney's argument for continuing to use waterboarding, which was imo reprehensible).

[kenisama]

yeah, but i'm not stupid... or self-righteous :p. i was being a little sarcastic, but my point is that democracy/republics have disadvantages compared to dictatorships and sometimes those disadvantages are painfully obvious. i'm not seriously recommending totalitarianism over democracy, and i'm not trying to belittle the fortune we have to be living in a free state, but sometimes we come out with bad outcomes when policy makers listen to the public... (although this was cheney's argument for continuing to use waterboarding, which was imo reprehensible).

Well that's good, at least now I know where you're coming from, we're all entitled to our views

Trust me, the Democrats [the very definition of Civil Rights] are not going to let that abomination stay around FOREVER.

So let me get this straight... the Republicans created an abomination called "The USA PATRIOT Act" in attempts to protect the nation (don't get me wrong, there's A LOT wrong with this Act, but bare with me as I make my point), but what about when the Democrats do (or are attempting to do) something very similar with S. 773: Cybersecurity Act, in which the President can "declare a cybersecurity emergency" relating to "nongovernmental" networks and "direct the national response to the cyber threat." So is this not an abomination? Lets also not forget "The USA PATRIOT Act" was extended by the Dems.

Which brings me to my next point, most of these "evil" plans cooked up in Washington, are more often than not, concocted through full bipartisanship! So I guess we really do hurt the country when we work together lol

Also... The USA PATRIOT Act = Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act

I was ROTFLMAO when I read that

[BasharOfTheAges]

I work in the defense industry... the cybersecurity thing is a pretty big deal. The danger is trying to be kept down to reduce panic, but there are a lot of stupid public network designs that are connected to things like power plants and public buildings that could cause a lot of problems if something were to happen. The act it self is just a formality - the president could order the people involved to do the very things that need doing anyways. This just clears the red tape so it gets done "too late" as opposed to "way way too late."

[CodeZTM]

So let me get this straight... the Republicans created an abomination called "The USA PATRIOT Act" in attempts to protect the nation (don't get me wrong, there's A LOT wrong with this Act, but bare with me as I make my point), but what about when the Democrats do (or are attempting to do) something very similar with S. 773: Cybersecurity Act, in which the President can "declare a cybersecurity emergency" relating to "nongovernmental" networks and "direct the national response to the cyber threat." So is this not an abomination? Lets also not forget "The USA PATRIOT Act" was extended by the Dems.

Which brings me to my next point, most of these "evil" plans cooked up in Washington, are more often than not, concocted through full bipartisanship! So I guess we really do hurt the country when we work together lol

Also... The USA PATRIOT Act = Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act

I was ROTFLMAO when I read that

Whoops. I think I should have used a more subtle word than abomination, and not used the word "democrats".

/BAD CODE

I think the government SHOULD be able to, as Bashar stated, be able to get through Red tape as quickly as possible in matters of TRUE NATIONAL SECURITY.

However, there are many instances where it's power has been pitifully abused and allowed fear mongering and racism to overtake the sensibility of the human mind.

But the fact of the matter is, the Patriot Act has a lot wrong with it. And my statement of "democrats not keeping the abomination forever" wasn't a slam against republicans. Yeah, the democrats sided with it in the beginning too, but back when it came into power, there was a hell of a lot of Nationalism and flag waving, and the fear of terrorism was still fresh in our minds. I stated that the "democrats" would not let it stay forever, because democrats are the big civil rights people, and the Patriot Act is like a knife going into the butter that is the US Civil Rights. It was just a normal statment, as I'd state about Republicans not letting that "abomination" of a tax law go through.

I gaurentee had 9/11 not occured, the Patriot Act would not exist. In fact, the Patriot Act [under different names] has been going through congress for DECADES and has never had even remotely enough support to be passed.

What I'm saying is that when a group of people fear something strongly enough, that they're willing to give up some freedoms to feel more secure. And our nation was closest the years after that, and a lot of Dems/Reps would work together at that point. So really, it's both of their faults.

The fact of the matter is, however, that the people [myself included] aren't as fearful as we were back in the early 2000's. And without fear, the clouded judgements made seem far worse than it did several years ago.

Also, I think it should be stated that I'm an independent. I side with both sides on a lot of different and varying issues. I'm not saying either side is perfect, but both sides really fuck up a lot of the time.

[kenisama]

I work in the defense industry... National Security is a pretty big deal.

TFTFY

I could say the same thing... except with missiles and stuff

[godix]

Why is hate only a problem when democrats are on the receiving end of it, but the exact same people whining about right wing fanatics hatred now didn't seem to mind all the 'Bush is a Nazi' BS that went on for eight years? That's what I hate about political discussions, most people are hypocritical mindless morons. If death threats and ad hominem attacks are wrong when directed at dems today, then it was wrong when directed at republicans a few years ago. For that matter, it's wrong when directed at republicans today too. Yet somehow calling Pelosi and Reid backroom dealing idiots who have to steal tons of tax payer money to bribe their own party members is considered hate mongering but calling Beck, Palin, or Limbaugh morons who have no idea what they're talking about is considered just stating the truth. Personally, I think both statements are fairly accurate but still, most people only get worked up about this shit when it's directed at the party they like and that really says a lot about them.

As for the actual topic, if insurance companies are the demons that fucked our health care system all up as Obama has pretty much said several times (and they are), I fail to see how expanding their customer base and requiring people to buy from them solves anything. It'd be like going "gee, TC really fucked cascadathon all up. To solve it's problems, we should make an org rule requiring all MEPs be run by him...'