Welcome to General Deception

[8bit_samurai]

Hosting is free :/ I donate because I want to, not because I have to. If I were donating just to host, then I been wasting my money because I haven't released anything for 4 years now and haven't had my videos downloaded for over 6 months now.

From what I heard the (old) community has been dying for 5+ years now, and to some, it has been dead for those 5+ years. Of course, the only part of the community I've been part of is these forums and can't really speak of anything else and just echo from what I heard. From when I joined, a lot of the editors and members of the forums I respected have disappeared, and I have asked myself a couple times why am I still here. Well, since then new members have replaced the old ones, and I may or may not respect them, but they are still part of the community. Of course the number of members joining may or may not be the same as the members leaving, but there's still seems enough to be a community. It may not seem like the community I once was part of, but I've been able to adapt. Welcome to the new community. I'm pretty sure if you just accept it and just have fun, you'll be able to adapt. Unless of course you vision of fun is to ramble on about the old days and give admins/mods a hard time about these old flames. Row row fight the powah, etc, etc.

[wurpess]

Um, being ex-MI, I have a pretty good idea of how deeply fucked things are, and how much the government tries to cover up. Unless you work for a government agency that deals in classified information, I probably know more than you. These days, it doesn't seem like wars are fought for much other reason than for politicians to make a profit and protect their investments. I am not as complacent and stupid as you may think. My drinking has not impared my judgement any, only given me the ability to stomach it without killing anyone, and makes me see that you can't spend every moment of every waking day worrying and thinking everyone is out to get you. You only get one life, you need to enjoy it.


Ok, you are obviously not married or have kids. So therefore you have no idea how expensive and time consuming it is to have a family. -_-

The way I look at it, the donator perks are kinda like NPO's giving t-shirts to people who donate. Many people will donate because they want to and the shirt is just a perk. Though you will still get people who will donate just because they want the shirt. No matter what donations are being collected for and in what way the organization gives its thanks, that's how it goes. (Like 8-bit, I donate because I want to, not for hosting or for perks. I would also be wasting my money if that was the case.) The donation stats are located in the sidebar on the front page under the 'Donate' tab. It's not some hidden secret. I have never had problems asking mods/admins about stuff if I've had a question about how things are run or if I have a problem. Art and creativity do not revolve around the internet. It may be a good way to spread ideas and share your work, but you don't need the internet or a web site to be creative or talk to other artists. And your arguments seem to be more centered around world politics than a web site or a hobby. Granted there are some similarities, but hobbies and web sites built around a hobby should not be taken as seriously as the state of the world. It's supposed to be fun. The actions of the mods/admin are not like the actions of congress and other government officials where it could affect the lives of an entire country. In fact, it doesn't even really affect creativity or your abilities as an AMVer. It just affects the place where you put your AMVs. And as Oto said, it was originally intended as a library, so that is what it should be run as.

[Arigatomina]

Why do people keep using the library reference? The org isn't a library. Authors can have their books removed from libraries. No library would ever tell an author "we're keeping a copy of your book on our shelf because the kids might stop visiting us otherwise." Libraries don't keep a hardcopy of every book on their shelves, they keep a list and if someone requests a book that they don't have available, they send for it and the person waits until it arrives. Libraries don't worry about the potential reader getting tired of waiting and going to the tube down the street.

Libraries are paid for by the city, not the visitors. Unless the library seriously angers the visitors, it has guaranteed funding. It looks good to have a library, so the city takes care of it. The org is funded by the visitors. It has to please those visitors in order to get anything. It has to service them and keep them happy because there is not city around to preserve the org just because it looks good to have an org within the district. If those visitors decide to be total cheapskates, they can go to that tube down the street and the org is left in the lurch.

A library doesn't care if it only gets a few visitors per week and a busload of kids every now and then. The people working there get paid regardless. For the org, lack of visitors means lack of everything that donations pay for. It also means fewer viewers, which means fewer editors, which means fewer amvs on the shelf. A library doesn't have to worry about luring in new writers to stock its shelves. People write books and the library picks the ones it thinks are PC enough to be on its shelf. The org doesn't get new amvs unless the editors come to it. So it has to keep the current editors happy and lure in new ones. That means keeping viewers available to watch what those editors are offering here. If there are no viewers here, the editors take their amvs to the tube down the street. People don't post their books to a library hoping to get new readers. Their profit comes from selling books, so the fewer free copies read in the library, the better. The writers whose books are hosted in libraries are the complete opposite of the amv editors whose vids are hosted here on the org.

I'm sure there are lots of other differences, but you get the point. If the org were a library, then it wouldn't worry about attracting new people, whether they're viewers or editors. It would be funded by an outside source that pays to keep it around just because it looks good to have an org around. It would add amvs to its collection without forcing editors to join and upload the vids themselves. It would be out there looking for new vids and asking the editors' permission to host them here on the org. If it doesn't get permission, then it will list the vid and link to wherever it's being distributed instead of hosting a copy itself. Reviews would not be for the editors. The only feedback that takes place in a library are reading clubs where readers talk to each other and post blogs to be read by other readers. Amv ops would be for potential readers just like book reviews are. I personally think an amv library would be a great resource and as a viewer, I'd love to hang out in one. But that's not what the org is. It's a place that encourages editors to make vids so it can host them to attract viewers who will give editors more reason to make vids so the org can host them to attract new viewers and editors and hopefully one or two of them might donate enough for the org to stick around another year.

The org is nothing like a library at all. I don't think it ever was. It's a year-round online convention where editors offer their vids while chatting amongst themselves and viewers sample the goods while chatting amongst themselves. Maybe a few meet&greet autograph sessions between fans and their idols, with Q&A teaching panels and discussion groups in the corners. At the end of the day a handful go home and another handful come in and it continues. The org is a meeting place for amv fans and in order to exist it services those fans and is supported by those fans. A library is a collection of goods made by people who will never step foot into that particular building, that is supported because "it looks good" to have one around, and any exchange between writers and readers only takes place if they have a guest author (which is more likely to happen in a bookstore than a library).

[Otohiko]

That's the definition of a public library. There are, broadly speaking, other kinds of libraries. Of course the .org isn't run like a public library, although there are a few obvious similarities. It is, importantly, run with a collection-for-public-interest sort of mindset.

Not to say there's no flaws in the way the .org's goals are set up. Actually there are many, and in many ways the .org's mission is unrealistic and often conflicts with reality. However that's how its architecture is set up right now, and we're stuck while the site is being re-written. So if you have ideas as to how it should be run - like I said, we have a whole forum about it! Please, the input is wanted and honestly right now is a good time for those with concrete, practical ideas as far as adjusting the .org's operating model to air them out and put them to the administration.

What I am saying, though, is that it's unlikely that the .org will stop being a video-cataloguing site, even assuming major adjustments.

[JaddziaDax]

Uh, he got the off topic forum back. I'm confused still as to what his complaint is any more O.o If the mods were really trying to censor us, then I guess they would have deleted this entire thread/locked it so no more discussion could be made on it. The youtube censor has also been removed. I would think that the mods are recently making changes for the better, or am I mistaken?

Is it because the old OT is hidden? oh no! that's all old shit from how many years ago! is it even relevant anymore? OT was closed before I joined the forum discussion, so I guess it doesn't matter to me. Who wants to revive a dead thread from years ago anyway?

Is it because some people asked for their posts from the "donator's forum" to also be hidden? who cares? they are just a couple of pictures and complaints/happyness anyway! This doesn't stop anyone's creativity.

As for advantages of the donator status... I donno, I donate because this community has given me a lot, and I want to give back to that. Having the extra "new vid on the blocks" is nice too, but I think I could survive without an edit button in the forum either way. (Maybe I'll just have to think about what I type before I type it next time?) I guess I don't pay enough attention to the other features to really have the rest of them matter too much to me.

As for the library complaint. I've seen even public libraries do donation drives where they hand out t-shirts because the funding from the city/state isn't enough. I've also seen libraries stock DVDs, popular authors, and Manga to get more card holding users in their doors as well. Hmmmn this sounds fairly familiar.

Besides, where do you think all that public funding comes from? the city? where does the city get it's money? TAXES. Where do Taxes come from? (lets say it all together folks...) THE PUBLIC. So you are right, the org isn't like a library at all. We don't charge the entirety of the internet to host us, only ask that the people who visit generously donate. Besides, we don't charge membership fees for downloads, late fees (can you return an amv?), make people pay for books not returned, ruined, etc.

[Otohiko]

Thanks JaddziaDax

Is it because the old OT is hidden? oh no! that's all old shit from how many years ago! is it even relevant anymore? OT was closed before I joined the forum discussion, so I guess it doesn't matter to me. Who wants to revive a dead thread from years ago anyway?

By the way, my offer still stands here - if this is a reason you (i.e. NME, other members with concerns of this nature) suspect censorship, I have no issue either a) looking up specific things that interest you from the old OT; b) petitioning those with the technical know-how for those archives to be made available externally. There's seriously nothing to hide there, aside from the fact that a forum that's been dead for 7 years is going to do nothing but clutter the board without purpose. So if for some reason you want to see these, I'm pretty sure we can make that happen. I don't think that's what you're really asking for, but since I'm not sure what you're asking for, I thought I'd extend that offer again.

[Pwolf]

Libraries are paid for by the city, not the visitors.

Where do you think the city gets the money to run said library?

[JaddziaDax]

b) petitioning those with the technical know-how for those archives to be made available externally. There's seriously nothing to hide there, aside from the fact that a forum that's been dead for 7 years is going to do nothing but clutter the board without purpose. So if for some reason you want to see these, I'm pretty sure we can make that happen. I don't think that's what you're really asking for, but since I'm not sure what you're asking for, I thought I'd extend that offer again.

We could always add cluttera subforum to this forum with the archives of the old OT and just leave all the dead threads locked... However you are right, it's probably clutter that's only good for nostalgia binges O.o

[Arigatomina]

I get the feeling everyone's intentionally missing my point. (Except Oto, props for understanding my English). Thanks. Now I have an excuse to repeat it.

Libraries don't need to attract writers in order to get books to stock their shelves. The org does.

Libraries are funded by taxes paid by people who may never use that library, and who would rather their taxes had gone to a community service they do use. Tax payers don't get to choose how much of their taxes go to each state funded program. The org is funded by donations paid directly to the org by people who do so because they use the org and like something the org is providing them.

Libraries provide books to readers who can't afford them or who don't want to pay for them. Libraries take profits out of the pockets of the authors whose books they share for free. The org provides amv hosting to editors who can't afford to buy their own or who don't want to use the free alternatives. The org gives profits (feedback, help) to editors by giving them easy access to a pre-existing pool of viewers. Libraries serve readers at the expense of writers. The org serves editors at the expense of...editors, mainly, since they're the ones who donate both the amvs and the money.

Writers would continue to write books even if readers stopped visiting libraries because writers do most of their "sharing" by selling. Writers would continue to write and sell books even if libraries no longer existed. Editors might not continue to make amvs if viewers stopped visiting the places where amvs are shared. Editors might not continue to make amvs if org and tube style amv-sharing places no longer existed.

Writers were writing and sharing books long before libraries came into existence. Editors only made vids for a few years before the org popped up to bring them to one place. Libraries popped up so people wouldn't have to buy their books in stores. The org and the tube popped up because people *can't* sell their amvs in stores.

Libraries = have stocked shelves whether writers choose to donate books or not.
The org = has nothing if editors choose not to donate amvs.

Libraries = go out and find books to add to their collection.
The org = makes editors come to it, bringing their amvs with them.

Libraries = for readers, funded by taxpayers (who are mainly readers).
The org = for editors, funded by editors (who are also viewers).

Big Bold Bottom Line (aka, the main point): The purpose of a library is to provide poor people with the same books rich people can afford. The purpose of the org is to create and encourage editors to make and continue making amvs so that the hobby doesn't die out.

Is that more clear? Because I don't like derailing NME's rant here. Maybe a mod can break this into a seperate "Org vs Libraries" thread. Then I can repeat myself ad nauseam until I find the right words to get my point across.

[Otohiko]

Big Bold Bottom Line (aka, the main point): The purpose of a library is to provide poor people with the same books rich people can afford. The purpose of the org is to create and encourage editors to make and continue making amvs so that the hobby doesn't die out.

This is a very interesting and useful point, thanks for making that.

I think one of the problems is that when phade set up the site, there was a (at the time, pretty correct) assumption of interest in AMVs being a given - and so the site was set up to collect first, and to promote/encourage later. And here it's valid to make the criticism that the designers of the site didn't think about the problem of attracting editors rather than viewers in the long term.

When the site was set up, it saw AMVs as a spinoff of the North American con scene. Phade saw his first videos at cons, and wanted to make a site that made it easy for people who saw videos at cons to go online and find those videos and more. But in the last few years, the scene changed dramatically. In that time, the .org got the ambition of becoming a kind of global center of AMVing while retaining the same old architecture. In the end, something totally weird happened: the .org never fully got its head around 'international' AMVing or, even with growing membership from around the world, managed to actually bring different AMV scenes together effectively; and at the same time the .org also lost touch with its original roots in the North American con scene to a large extent. The result? I think the promotional purpose of the site got diluted, because there is this continued assumption that as long as we continue to have a place to host and search for videos, they will come. But that's not how it really happens, is it.

That's not a policy/administration problem so much as it's an architecture problem though. And only a redesign of the site architecture will fix it. In the meantime, honestly, collecting the videos and keeping the place civil is still the best thing we can do.

Honestly, we need a balance of both. And much more than any OT forums, archives, or other means of fraternizing, the site could help encourage participation by three things: (1) a new and improved set of 'official' guides on the site; (2) better featuring of content - both AMVs themselves, and things like articles, interviews, and other features to keep the scene interested; (3) site events, activities and involvement with promoting AMVs both on the site (like contests, sponsored ICs, etc. etc.), and outside of the site - be it at cons or through outreach to international AMV scenes.

But yeah, we're getting a bit off topic here...