Thoughts on substance in AMVs

[Knowname]

it's too late to read, but I'm not beleiveing what I think I'm seeing. all of my amvs has a story. and yes, my AMVS has a story, not the anime, not the song, the AMV itself. I wouldn't enjoy making AMVs if I had to follow somebody else' junk.

You should believe it... you need to realize that not everyone thinks the way that you do, and not every video needs to have a story |: .. Sure you personally may not enjoy it, but that doesn't mean that what other people make is junk, its just how they like to create and edit. If you really insist on thinking that videos that don't have stories are junk, then you need to re-evaluate what an amv is... it is an anime music video... not a book or a feature length film that was created to have a solid story. What we do is manipulate the video and/or audio source to our liking, and though some may try to create a story or recreate the story shown in the anime, its merely shows a progression in the video, not usually a clear cut linear story that everyone can follow all the way through or at least not in the same way.

Don't fall into the category of people who think that creating some sort of narrative is the only way to present a video, it'll only hinder you from realizing that there's much much more you can create but not limiting yourself to a linear story.

obviously I do beleive it lol, I just don't buy it. Nobody's emo (whether depressed or hyper or just Osaka like) 24x7.

What I'm saying is not from a beleif standpoint it is from a what I know is true standpoint. My beleifs change, but what I know is true do not... And yes, I'm probably in that group you hate. It's not that I have trouble thinking out of the box, it's just I don't beleive everything I see. I have a hard enough time beleiveing in everything I do.

like I said not every video needs to have a story, just it's more relevant if there is one... even if it's unintended or just an account of HOW the AMV came to be (YES! The bridge between my two posts -_-). I made that video mostly thanks to Beyond the Clowns videos just to see if trueley ANY clown can do it (with the proper song combo)... that and I was rather emo. But it's not like I disregard what others think, I try my best to keep that into account. I'll probley do more of those videos, they're just so easy to do... did I mention I did that in like the span of 3 hours or so. Nother thread. Anyway if you here disgust in an op you get keep in mind OTHERS have their opinions as well. For me the disgust you get when I call a video a Beyond the Clowns video is the same as when I call a video a Linkin Ball video, it's based on the effort shown, not on the concept or story/ lack of.

And in the end, an op is an op. I'm sure you know this, just you said 'if you think it's junk don't say it's junk' ... lol, well too bad, it's in my op ;p. Hehe, but I also keep some netiquette in mind and I usually remind the creator that it IS my opinion this thing is junk (from some standpoint, remember that standpoint may not yet be clear! I don't be clear until I get a response anyway... to not waste anybodys time)

[Knowname]

What we do is manipulate the video and/or audio source to our liking, and though some may try to create a story or recreate the story shown in the anime, its merely shows a progression in the video, not usually a clear cut linear story that everyone can follow all the way through or at least not in the same way.

I agree. That is the REAL definition of what we do.

I've been having some of the same criticism pop up here and there lately. It makes me irritated when someone comments that they couldn't find a story in a vid, especially when its a dance or action vid. Sometimes we as editors choose to produce something that captures the intensity of the music, the lyrics of the song or the portrayal of feelings. There doesn't have to be a clear cut storyline for the viewer to follow. It's hard to believe that people watch every video expecting a storyline and generally when this happens they come away with the idea that the videos without storys are just random clips set to music. I guess it's the viewers loss but it's hard for the creator to take criticism from someone who was looking at the video in the completely wrong light.

I guess I'm just restating what has been said already, but I'm in agreement that AMVs, by no means, have to have a story. In fact it's those that create their own atmospheres and portrayal of emotions that turn out being the best in my opinion.

I do say that alot so I'll say this, you can't substitute theme for story, however you can STRENGTHEN story with your theme. Some videos (nameley the ones with nicknames ;p the ones we love to tease) have no general story but MAY have a strong theme... don't get me wrong, some don't even have a strong theme. The type of story I refer to is not just IN the AMV, it's also ABOUT the AMV. To me 'no story' means you didn't think about your amv. A good book, or story (fairy tale, episcle etc.) needs not just to have a begining and end. It needs to have an ORIGIN and the thing most ppl (be it unknowingly or not, we tend to know more than we beleive) key in on when they tease a video in that way is a very weak ORIGIN, like you just made it to be more popular...

[Cornwiggle]

I think of "theme" as just "It's about something" even if you take 900 animes, but do a fanservice theme, it's still about something.

The only thing I don't mind vids being totally random is if they're supposed to be comedy, random comedy is the best, and I guess I consider that to be a theme too.

[JCD]

An AMV should have a concept that is more than: "That are cool fighting scenes. That's a cool song. I'll synch that scenes to that song."

I sometimes wish there would be more well edited videos like this

But ya... I've had lots of people complaining about the lack of story or message in videos like eurofire or princess bride and thus being random ...

[Koopiskeva]

He never said he thought other people's videos were junk if they didn't have a story. He said he didn't want to make amvs if he had to rely on a story as presented by the music and/or anime. It's that 'music and/or anime' story he was calling junk. He made no judgement on other people's videos at all. He was talking solely about *making* amvs. o.O

It was a bit difficult to sort out what he said there so.. yeah.. >_>

What happened to what you said earlier about it being up to the creator how he decides to make his video? The entire thread started because you didn't like people telling you your videos lacked something because they didn't have a story. How are you any different from them when you tell other people they lack something because their videos *do* have a story?

[sarcasm/

Don't fall into the category of people who think that creating some sort of narrative is not a valid way to present a video. Why shouldn't you fall into that category? Because I said so. Because I think think it would limit you and what I think should matter to you.

/sarcasm]

I am not outlawing them from creating what they want to create, if narrative-type of AMVs are what they want to create, then thats just fine. I should have been more clear in stating that I was strictly speaking about the opinions they leave behind on videos that they didn't create should not be limited simply looking for a linear storyline which more than often does not exist.

Consider this: it's the story that makes people attach emotions to anime scenes. Unless you're catering solely to those unfamiliar with the anime, you're using the associations the viewer already made to the anime story in order to do your emotional collage. Even those who've never seen the anime build their own story - not to annoy you by reading a story into it that you didn't intend - but because it's very hard to have an emotional response to something that means nothing to you. I take the images you give me in your vids and sort them so they have some meaning to me. Yeah, that means I infer a story that makes the characters and scenes matter to me. If I didn't, they'd just be random images that inspire no emotion at all.

This is exactly what I mean by perception. Everyone will create a story from what the creator has done...even videos that have no obvious focus, and there are those who fail to see that many videos have more point to them than simply just showing a story and although there may be one, it simply gets lost in the way that the video is presented. But even if you do infer a story from the video, that doesn't necessarily mean it correlates with the editor's intention.

Emotional collage vids are enjoyable when they work. But they won't work for viewers like me if we're told to stop instinctively viewing the random scenes and sorting them into a pattern that means something. Abstract art is only good when people can look at it and see the story the creator was trying to hide or make unrecognizable. If they can't find anything, it's just random shapes in possibly pretty colors and interesting textures. You don't seem to be using anime as *anime* - animated stories. But even if you were using entirely original abstract scenes, your viewers would still try to contrive some meaning out of it. And it's only natural for people to put that meaning into the form of a story.

That's cool...

I don't understand the point of this thread. Do you want to get people to agree that editors like you should be free to avoid anything resembling stories while editors who like stories should be taught to stop limiting themselves and to do things your way? Or are you just trying to find out what other people think about the issue? If it's the latter, don't lecture the people who have an opposite opinion from you. They're as free to edit the way they want as you are, even if their way is as alien (wrong, limiting) to you as your way is to them.

You were kind of the right track about a few things, but you missed the point of the thread for the most part... The point of the thread was to ask people'e thoughts on what I was thinking... These thoughts being about people who watch videos looking for a storyline which may or may not exist then give an opinion about such and such video by saying either it has a story or its just random images. But, that's not the problem... the problem is that when they give an opinion about it, they tend to say their iopnion as if it were fact... like the editor did something wrong by not following the 'conventional' linear story in which any onlooker could follow. The point of the thread was to give my thoughts about this issue and related ones... it was not about me telling people how to edit their videos. My suggestions, although direct and seemingly like an order, were to tell them that they should not limit themselves to watching videos in a certain way because they'd be missing much more than an apparent storyline... that AMVs are not limited to being viewed as if it were a book or a movie with a clear beggining, middle, and end.

[Koopiskeva]

So, if you make a video that is commemorating something that has happened in your life and nobody else gets it, then its meaningless?

Of course it is meaningless to anyone else but you in this case. If you release it, you should expect and respect peoples opinions on this. Since noone gets it, what else should they tell you as "random clips to music", "no story" or the like? Because that's what remains if the original idea behind it is stripped.

Yes, of course I would respect people's opinion... but those leaving those opinions should also realize that what they are saying are just that.. opinions, and shouldn't try to pawn it off as if it were fact. |:

[Koopiskeva]

I do say that alot so I'll say this, you can't substitute theme for story, however you can STRENGTHEN story with your theme. Some videos (nameley the ones with nicknames ;p the ones we love to tease) have no general story but MAY have a strong theme... don't get me wrong, some don't even have a strong theme. The type of story I refer to is not just IN the AMV, it's also ABOUT the AMV. To me 'no story' means you didn't think about your amv. A good book, or story (fairy tale, episcle etc.) needs not just to have a begining and end. It needs to have an ORIGIN and the thing most ppl (be it unknowingly or not, we tend to know more than we beleive) key in on when they tease a video in that way is a very weak ORIGIN, like you just made it to be more popular...

This kind of view is based much on your perception of the video... and not the video itself. Your pre-conceived notions of how an AMV should be hinders you from seeing much more than that... you look for a story and place greater importance on the understanding of that story.. but in actuality, you miss the point of the video... as in.. the video was never meant to have a story, and the concept of it was never built around a story, so your reply would be to say that the editor didn't place enough effort or 'think' about the amv. This then translates to you not being able to view the video as it was intended.. therefore losing any meaning that it holds.

The origin of a video is something entirely different from what is being discussed.. but I guess I could give my thoughts on it..

To me, the origin of a video could stem from any amount fo things such as the classic 'I have a song and I want to make a video with it' or vice versa...to 'My brother just got into a terrible car accident and this is my way of expressing it' ... how exactly can one infer this from seeing a video unless the editor themselves state that specific origin? How can you actually judge that sort of thing when most of the time, you don't know that person and are simply trying to gauge the origin from the AMV? All you are really doing is speculating.. and for you to judge a video by your speculation is pretty arrogant in my opinion.. to believe that you can actually infer and take into account all the factors that went into creating a video without actually knowing. However, there are people who do so nonetheless, and though I may think it be arrogant, I don't believe its wrong.. but I do believe it wrong if you were to state that speculative opinion as a fact.

[themaan]

I always took the whole "story" thing as just "a point." You don't need to necissarily have a linear plot, just a point for people to come out of the video with. Maybe I'm way behind in this conversation, as I haven't read all of the posts, but that's basically what I think.

I never shoot for a plot-like story in my videos, just underline ideas. Except in cases that are comedy videos or a trailer or something. Maybe people have high standards when it comes to AMVs, these videos are just fun and a way to show off technical skill. You don't need to have all these huge metaphors or life changing revelations. It's a 3 min video using anime set to music, not a huge masterpiece that's going to change everyone's lives!

Although...there are some really good videos out there...

[Knowname]

wait wait, ok, forget everything I said before. I tend to stumble over my words, but anyway yeah... So, you don't think that origin has anything to do with the story?

In this thread, so far, It seems that some ppl saw your reference of story and contrasted it to theme wich opened my eyes a little more. Later on some pointed out that an easy way to contact the audiences emotions is touching on something through the story and I will add you can also do that through your theme. Following? Story being what had happened (the easiest example being a digest of the anime, the back story being the anime itself), and the theme being what IS happening (in the forementioned example the theme being 'this anime digested'). So... do I have my deffenitions mixed up, how can you NOT have an origin in your story.

For instance I'm downloading an amv right now cuz I like the anime it's based on and the amv creator that made it. That's pretty ++ on story alone. If it has a good theme I'll like it even more! I downloaded a wmv this morning. that's a (-) there... but it had a good theme, more than made up for it. Story AND Theme deffiniteley affects how well everything comes together.

Note I'm not saying I judge my friends any better, just that going INTO their videos I am in a better mood therefor more likeley to judge higher, yes, but also more likeley to be disapointed -_-. I'm just saying I expect more pluses from my friends ;p.

OK I'll try to come up with a situation with no story but the theme was just INCREDIBLE. OK, take the first time I downloaded one of Suberunker's videos (a different side of me), I had NO idea who he was, it was an avi so whatever... so no story just the theme got to me. Yes, I guess in that sense you can have no story, no positive origin (up until than I HATED Golden Boy AMVs), but.... ;p It'll never happen to you ;p (or Suberunker again... sneaky bastards) so I think you'll disagree. How do you define story? In relation to theme of coarse...

[Arigatomina]

... the problem is that when they give an opinion about it, they tend to say their iopnion as if it were fact... like the editor did something wrong by not following the 'conventional' linear story in which any onlooker could follow. [edit] ...they should not limit themselves to watching videos in a certain way because they'd be missing much more than an apparent storyline...

I like that. It almost sounds like you're arguing that there isn't a 'right way' to judge an amv. There isn't, as far as I'm concerned, but most people seem to think there is. I think it's your original post that threw me the most. You said:

Sure, plenty of videos do have very linear story lines (some so much that its not longer an AMV, but rather simply a video with music in the background...

That's how you judge amvs - if the story is too linear, it's not an amv to you. You were very clear about that. And you don't seem to think there's anything wrong with you stating your opinion as if it were a generally accepted fact here. I don't agree with it, myself, but it probably is still a fact for the community. If enough people in the community believe it, it is a fact, right?

I'd like it better if more people didn't come into watching an amv with a predisposed idea of what an amv should be. We could probably have an entire thread on what the "generally accepted idea" of a "correct" amv is here on the org. I didn't even know until recently that there were things that determine whether or not a video of anime footage synced to music counted as an amv. I was operating under the assumption that any semi-short video of anime synced to music is an amv, regardless of story/theme or lackthereof. I'd approach each vid differently depending on what kind of amv it is - but I still consider them all amvs.

You don't consider linear story vids to be amvs, let alone to be good or proper amvs. Why would you be so frustrated if a few people don't consider your nonlinear nonstory vids to be proper amvs? I don't think anyone could change your mind about what you think counts as an amv. You won't change their minds, either. You can either correct them by explaining that most people here don't agree with them (so it's not a fact), or you can ignore them as being uninformed.

This whole "they say it like it's a fact" thing is troublesome. A video I like is good. A video I don't like is bad. A good video should have a story I can follow. A good random video should feature a theme I enjoy. Those are facts if I make the statements in an op. Opinions are by their very nature subjective. You click a box titled "opinion" in order to leave the feedback. There's no need to pepper the review with I think, I believe, it's my opinion, if you ask me, in my eyes, the way I see it, etc. It's an opinion. Everything in it is subjective.

If those reviewers start hounding you outside the op, claiming they speak for the majority here, just point them to this thread. They're clearly uninformed.