Proposal for Honest Op week

Flint the Dwarf · Post by **Flint the Dwarf** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:19 pm

Tom the Fish wrote:Further justification for removing my AMVs from the web...

Tom

Blah, I thought If (statement = True) {statement = False}; was a great video. But I guess now that you've removed it from the net and I no longer have it, I can't change my opinion of it. And I think I liked Fight!, but if I remember correctly it dragged on after a couple of minutes.

Kaiba57 · Post by **Kaiba57** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:54 pm

Probably the site averages aren't inflated, just a lot of the vids out there are really that good.

Zotto · Post by **Zotto** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:15 am

I don't understand the reason of this.

Do you want to lower the site average score? Is it a crusade to give to everybody what they deserve?

It's rare to op videos you didn't like, and it is not needed, with this system and LOT of ppl can't see a bad review as: "something useful to make you improve", it's just something that lowered his amv's scores, and if site's average is 8, and you put (logically) 5 for an average score, what will he think? A 5 is a crappy score, not average.
But if you are so generous and really want to see people improved, send 'em an email, or contact them via msn or aim, but don't leave an opinion here with this system if you are planning to put really low scores. Noone forces you to put opinions, and this is not the only metod if u want to make them improve. If a people sees an amv with an average score of: 5 5 8 7 6 5 8, will he download it, will YOU download it? Of course not, if not constricted, and do you think that the creator is happier with an objective review or with people downloading his amv? It's not fair for the viewer, but if you do what you are going to do you are just going to get 50, 100, 150 ppl angry, and still not changing the opinion average system. PPL are still used to 8 = average, that's the main point, and I don't think this is the way to change it...

I know I wasn't constructive... But I can't find a good idea to change the "average score", even because you have to change it even in ppl's mind... Except of resetting the whole opinion database O_o reworking completely the opinion system, but you know... Maybe it's not worth doing that...

Above all, my brain just says that there's nothing to do and I have to accept it, and I am glad that I understand that 5.5 is the average and 8 is good, if other ppl don't understand it... It's not in my abilities to change their mind

downwithpants · Post by **downwithpants** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:40 pm

Zotto wrote:I don't understand the reason of this.

Do you want to lower the site average score? Is it a crusade to give to everybody what they deserve?

god forbid that people get scores they deserve...

Zotto wrote:It's rare to op videos you didn't like, and it is not needed, with this system and LOT of ppl can't see a bad review as: "something useful to make you improve", it's just something that lowered his amv's scores, and if site's average is 8, and you put (logically) 5 for an average score, what will he think? A 5 is a crappy score, not average.

unfortunately, this is true in many cases - members being unable to accept opinions simply because they give low scores.

some members do need to learn to accept criticism and not shove it aside as someone's unfounded rants. will giving out low scores contribute to this goal? i dunno, it's possible - if a creator sees consistently low scores, she might get the hint that the video was, in fact, in need of the improvement suggested in the opinions - on the other hand, some creators will ignore them unconditionally.

to delve even further into the topic, some creators subscribe to the "i don't care what other people think, i do this for myself" philosophy. which is perfectly fine, and in which case, any opinion (not just critical ones), would be unsolicited. (hopefully they notate this somewhere in their profile or vid description).

Zotto wrote:But if you are so generous and really want to see people improved, send 'em an email, or contact them via msn or aim, but don't leave an opinion here with this system if you are planning to put really low scores. Noone forces you to put opinions, and this is not the only metod if u want to make them improve. If a people sees an amv with an average score of: 5 5 8 7 6 5 8, will he download it, will YOU download it? Of course not, if not constricted, and do you think that the creator is happier with an objective review or with people downloading his amv?

giving undeserving videos high marks does nothing beneficial for the site. you could make the argument that high marks will make the creator happy, but the problem is about half of all opinion scores will always be below the site average. (exactly half of all opinions will be below the median). in other words, we can't always give "above average" scores just to make epeople happy, because that raises the average and further trivializes the opinion system.

Zotto wrote:It's not fair for the viewer, but if you do what you are going to do you are just going to get 50, 100, 150 ppl angry, and still not changing the opinion average system. PPL are still used to 8 = average, that's the main point, and I don't think this is the way to change it...

the purpose of this honest opinion week, if i'm not mistaken, is to encourage people to give opinions in a manner that won't lead to further score inflation, and ideally (though improbably) trigger a bloom in such fair-op-giving practices that it reduce the influence of op-inflating biases (such as the "top videos getting more ops", "high score for high score tit-for-tat" in op exchange, "friends giving friends high scores", and "because site average=8 therefore video average=8" reasoning error).

Zotto wrote:I know I wasn't constructive... But I can't find a good idea to change the "average score", even because you have to change it even in ppl's mind... Except of resetting the whole opinion database O_o reworking completely the opinion system, but you know... Maybe it's not worth doing that...

Above all, my brain just says that there's nothing to do and I have to accept it, and I am glad that I understand that 5.5 is the average and 8 is good, if other ppl don't understand it... It's not in my abilities to change their mind

your post does help by pointing out some opposing arguments, and by pointing out how widespread the misconception 8=average video is.

it's not possible to determine the exact score an average video would get after removing all biases. however, 5.5 is not "the" average - but rather the average that some op givers give. this point also illustrates another problem (or at least nuance) of the op system - it is not standardized (with the exception of reviewability, for which descriptions of each score appear in a hover box). this means that some op givers give 5.5 as average, some 6 as average, some 7 as average, and some 8 as average.

now the french editors are going to try to kill us with a one-million calorie eclair. /obligatory reference

BasharOfTheAges · Post by **BasharOfTheAges** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:04 pm

Zotto wrote: Do you want to lower the site average score? Is it a crusade to give to everybody what they deserve?

Essentially, yes.

Zotto wrote: It's rare to op videos you didn't like, and it is not needed, with this system and LOT of ppl can't see a bad review as: "something useful to make you improve", it's just something that lowered his amv's scores

A review is supposed to be useful information presented to the creator to help him/her improve. That's what ops are for! If, you are here for high scores, you are here for the wrong reason. This isn't Kindergarden, you don't... well, you shouldn't get a gold star for effort.

Zotto wrote: A 5 is a crappy score, not average.

On a scale from 1 to 10, 5.5 is an average score; in fact 5.5 defines an average score on that interval. Talk to any statistician, they will confirm this.

Zotto wrote: But if you are so generous and really want to see people improved, send 'em an email, or contact them via msn or aim, but don't leave an opinion here with this system if you are planning to put really low scores.

Again... this is the purpose of the opinion system!

Zotto wrote: If a people sees an amv with an average score of: 5 5 8 7 6 5 8, will he download it, will YOU download it?

Though i cannot speak for others on this point, I do download random videos and give them honest opinions. That's where the idea sprung from. Well.. that, and my desire to see more detailed ops for videos that arn't great so that others (myself included) would have a model to follow.

Zotto wrote: Above all, my brain just says that there's nothing to do and I have to accept it, and I am glad that I understand that 5.5 is the average and 8 is good, if other ppl don't understand it... It's not in my abilities to change their mind

Rather than sit back and complain about the problem I'd prefer to actively do something about it. The site staff have a lot on their plate to deal with (have you looked at the site to do list lately?), so i think the people of this community can at least do something to help the problem instead of ignoring it or lamenting over the fact that it exists.

If it dosn't work, it dosn't work. But i'll feel a lot better knowing that i tried to solve a problem that a lot of other people prefered to complain about and do nothing, or ignore completely.

Zotto · Post by **Zotto** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:24 pm

Okay okay now things are clearer.

In my opinion this purpose won't work, but if it does I will be really glad to be mistaken

Anyway history was written by those who tried, like you.

Yeah I do understand that we have to help this site staff and I know that they are working for us.

Well... best wishes for this trial

Arigatomina · Post by **Arigatomina** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:38 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:Rather than sit back and complain about the problem I'd prefer to actively do something about it.

This is very irritating coming from someone who's given 10 reviews in 7 months, a total of 1332 words according to the usefulness. I've been reading this thread for days, but I haven't seen you give any additional reviews.

If you want to encourage people to review more, lead by example. Omni led by example when he was trying to get older creators to review newbie vids - he gave more than his share to show that he wasn't asking anything he didn't do himself.

tuathaanwarrior · Post by **tuathaanwarrior** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:48 pm

downwithpants wrote:it is not standardized (with the exception of reviewability, for which descriptions of each score appear in a hover box).

Actually, why not just have standardized descriptions of or at least guidelines for all teh categories. I know that my review scores when im giving ops are a hell of a lot lower because i actually follow those guidelines adn noone can complain cuz i just quote the descriptions. I also no that that is the lowest score in the site average, so if all the shizzies had guidelines, it would help create a standardized set of rules for oppers to give.

Kaiba57 · Post by **Kaiba57** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:21 pm

I really don't understand why a lot of people don't like the "high" averages on the system. The reason the global avarages are inflated is becasue many people op vids that are either very good, or that they really like, hence the many 9's and 10's. You would not often op a vid that really sucks, or you disliked. The only time I could really see a peson oping a bad vid, was probably for an op exchange, but other than that, hardly anyone will op an vid that they think deserves 4's or 5's.

Kalium · Post by **Kalium** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:35 pm

Kaiba57 wrote:I really don't understand why a lot of people don't like the "high" averages on the system. The reason the global avarages are inflated is becasue many people op vids that are either very good, or that they really like, hence the many 9's and 10's. You would not often op a vid that really sucks, or you disliked. The only time I could really see a peson oping a bad vid, was probably for an op exchange, but other than that, hardly anyone will op an vid that they think deserves 4's or 5's.

Therein lies the problem. Inflation.