Multi-source AMVs [SPLIT]

[Arigatomina]

I do not believe "drama = random face shots".

That right there explains why people were so quick to take offence, then. You're part of a minority. ^.~

I'm not sure I understand your definition of thematic. I see theme as an addition to an already established storyline. One does be thematic alone unless it is a fun or comedy video.

This is strange to me. I think of the horror genre where the 'theme' is violence/angst/death - the theme is there and the story, if there is a story, is built by using scenes that show the theme - dark violence, crying face shots, tearful death scenes. If the theme is sappy romance (think Inuyasha/Kagome videos), a video based on that theme will revolve around sappy romance clips - hugging, wide-eyed face shots, cutsy blushing face shots, tearful sappy face shots, romantic standing and staring at each other clips - anything that fits the theme and comes together under the 'romance' category. A drama vid that uses the "I hate myself" theme would involve angsty/angry face shots, scenes of self-mutilation or self-isolation, clips of the solitary character standing by himself (possibly with potential friends separate in the background to show his angst), and any other clip that will build the "I hate myself" theme.

I can see where any story will need thematic consistency - if you start wanting to show how two people got together, and you want to do it in a bright and positive way, you'd stick to clips that match that theme. But if the point of the story is 'upbeat romantic clips that make you go awww' - you don't need a story to match the theme. It would depend where you start, whether or not the theme is an addition to a preset story, or if the story is an addition to the preset theme.

If you like watching a video that will make you smile without making you think, one of those thematically sappy romance vids will do the trick - no story necessary so long as there are enough sappily romantic clips to go with the music track. I like story-based vids, but I also like theme/emotion based vids where the only consistency is in the emotion the clips instill in the viewer. It just depends on my mood at the time.

[Kionon]

That right there explains why people were so quick to take offence, then. You're part of a minority. ^.~

They should watch TNT. They know drama.

In all seriousness, a drama video requires a storyline, regardless of source. My bias against multi-source is due to the extra factor it causes the already difficult process. However, any single-source video is capable of the same issues. In fact, as I think we both agreed, many do have the same issues.

This is strange to me. I think of the horror genre where the 'theme' is violence/angst/death - the theme is there and the story, if there is a story, is built by using scenes that show the theme - dark violence, crying face shots, tearful death scenes. If the theme is sappy romance (think Inuyasha/Kagome videos), a video based on that theme will revolve around sappy romance clips - hugging, wide-eyed face shots, cutsy blushing face shots, tearful sappy face shots, romantic standing and staring at each other clips - anything that fits the theme and comes together under the 'romance' category. A drama vid that uses the "I hate myself" theme would involve angsty/angry face shots, scenes of self-mutilation or self-isolation, clips of the solitary character standing by himself (possibly with potential friends separate in the background to show his angst), and any other clip that will build the "I hate myself" theme.

I'm confused. I don't see where this is different from what I had mentioned before. The last truly disturbing video I saw still had a coherent plotline. It was of Dreams and Shadows by Kerydwenn. It had all you speak about about. Dark, forboding, violent, and eery music to match. It still followed a character through a story. I admit I didn't really understand it, but I can say the same for many movies. Character went from point a to point b to point c. A horror video without story coherency is no better than any other type of drama video without story coherency.

The same goes for romance. If you're going to use literal lyrical synch, is it that hard to put the clips in chronological order, or otherwise in such a way that they flow together in a coherent storyline that explains the relationship? I don't think it is. My second video was a marked improvement on my first. It was a KareKano romance video. Literal synch was only taken so far in this one, and the clips were roughly chronological. I wasn't just showing clips of the relationship, I was trying to follow the relationship through time. I wanted to give the viewer a sense of the steps taken to get to the relationship's present. In other words, I was telling a story.

I have never encountered a "I hate myself" video. Doesn't sound like my type of thing, but I can only assume that my reasoning applies to them as well. Surely if the character is mutilating herself, there must be a shot in the anime of her doing it. Furthermore there is usually a reason for such things. I had an ex that cut once. These things do not develop instantaneously. There is a story there, and many times there is footage you can use to show it (even if you have to manipulate it, not something I'm fond of, but that is another thread entirely). So I really cannot fathom an excuse of why a coherent story would be left out of the equation in such a video.

I can see where any story will need thematic consistency - if you start wanting to show how two people got together, and you want to do it in a bright and positive way, you'd stick to clips that match that theme. But if the point of the story is 'upbeat romantic clips that make you go awww' - you don't need a story to match the theme. It would depend where you start, whether or not the theme is an addition to a preset story, or if the story is an addition to the preset theme.

I concur entirely with the last sentence, but in either case, and I don't care which, there must be a story. You say so yourself. A random collection of clips to make me go aww without telling me why I should go aww just makes me go wtf instead. Especially if I have not seen the anime before. Why should I care these two characters are being sappy? Show me, even if you think anime x is the greatest evar and I should just know that character z and character y love each other so much. Frankly, I don't know why they love each other and I'm not going to care if you don't walk me through their relationship.

If you like watching a video that will make you smile without making you think, one of those thematically sappy romance vids will do the trick - no story necessary so long as there are enough sappily romantic clips to go with the music track. I like story-based vids, but I also like theme/emotion based vids where the only consistency is in the emotion the clips instill in the viewer. It just depends on my mood at the time.

Here is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. Fun videos make me smile without making me think. Back to Odorikuruu. Technical videos make me go wow without making me think. Romantic videos? No, by their very nature they make me think. My reaction will be "Uh, okay, so why are they together now?" You point out I'm in the minority, so I'll take your word for it. Story is important to me. You can't write a dramatic novel with fluff and expect it to be memorable. My experience suggests the same is true of any art form, AMVs included.

[x_rex30]

You could use dramatic scenes of war from multiple animes to create a drama video about war. You could also make a video about loss or solitude using multiple sources from different anime. The only time it seems inappropriate to use sources from different anime in a drama video, is if your doing a character profile drama video.

Sometimes it's hard to find a certain emotion you want to portray in your video, and there isn't really an excuse to not explore other anime to find scenes that would portray a certain emotion you want to portray. If you think it's rare to do a good drama video using multiple anime, or that it's inappropriate, then you are extremely close minded.

Yes you said "Very rarely can a creator, in my opinion, do enough with source material and song alone to make a coherent, dramatic story out of more than one anime.", but you have not downloaded every video on the site so STFU about that!! Until you find your sources to prove your theory correct, then you are going to be stuck making yourself seem arrogant.

[Kionon]

If you think it's rare to do a good drama video using multiple anime, or that it's inappropriate, then you are extremely close minded.

[snipped for points already countered in in previous posts.]

Yes you said "Very rarely can a creator, in my opinion, do enough with source material and song alone to make a coherent, dramatic story out of more than one anime.", but you have not downloaded every video on the site so STFU about that!! Until you find your sources to prove your theory correct, then you are going to be stuck making yourself seem arrogant.

lol arguing on the internet

Although, seriously, you seems to be confusing opinion with fact and persuasion with proof. While I am offering supporting evidence for my argument, there is no way to prove that story coherency is better than lack of it. However, I'd like to think I could effectively counter any support offered against my stance. And if I was so arrogant as you suggest, why would I point out flaws in my own videos? I am not arguing bindly. My experiences have taught me what I believe to be true.

And frankly, your comment about not having seen all, what? 75,000 AMVs on the org? is immaterial. I've seen a few thousand at least over the years, and I usually don't discriminate. I'll watch almost anything once. So, I think I've seen a fair sampling. You have your work cut out for you if you plan to convince me that my sampling has vastly different composition than the Org in general. Probably my sampling is higher in quality, in fact, because of my time spent around other creators.

STFU? You seem to miss the point of discussion forums. Furthermore, telling the other person to be quiet, especially with swear words, lowers your credibility. You want me to shut up? Counter my points effectively so I can no longer counter yours. I adapt and change my views based on any new information I have been persuaded is valid. Debate well, and I may agree with you. I admit that I have my doubts, but I will not discount the possibility. If I did, I really would be arrogant. I can be wrong, often multiple times daily. Just like everyone else.

That being said, I will not longer entertain debate that is personally hostile. I don't think anyone here is stubborn, arrogant, or stupid. At least I am not so crass as to admit it publically. Civilized debate refrains from demonizing one's opponent. It's simply bad form. I may come off as arrogant or elitist sometimes, we all do, but much it is due to my langauge, I think. I am a writer by training and a journalist by experience. Sometimes organized writing is mistaken for high handedness, especially on a tonally deficient medium like the internet. Such is understandable, if you judge arrogance or elitism by virtue of vocabulary choice alone. I tend to believe that intellectual discussion requires complex word choices. After all, you're working with complex concepts. In that case, the higher your vocabulary, the better you can express your argument and support.

You are free to think me stubborn, close-minded, arrogant, or even stupid. You have that right, and I can't stop you anyway. However, since I am not the topic of discussion, story coherency in amvs (especially multi-source amvs) is, perhaps we should stop discussing me. Arguing on the internet is questionable enough at times. Arguing about arguing on the internet is superfluous.

So, how about that story coherency vs. theme?

[x_rex30]

lol arguing on the internet

Ummmm... :\ What do you call the last two pages of this thread? You rambling non stop and arguing writing like 20 paragraphs trying to prove your point. Yet even still, you haven't got anyone supporting your statements, and you still continue to argue instead of just giving up(except maybe trythil). In cases like this you should just learn to just drop it so you don't go off looking like a arrogant bastard like you've already made yourself look.

[Arigatomina]

...there is no way to prove that story coherency is better than lack of it. However, I'd like to think I could effectively counter any support offered against my stance.

Any support offered against your stance would be opinion, subjective opinion. You cannot prove your stance (that story coherency is better than lack of it) because your stance is based on subjective opinion. Just like you can't prove your opinion, you can't effectively counter anyone else's opinion. It's just me saying I like this and you saying you don't like it. We're not arguing, we're sharing our views.

I find your view interesting to hear, especially since you've obviously put a lot of thought into defending your opinion. But you can't prove it, I can't disprove it, and you can't defend it in any way but to say "I believe this and it's my right to believe this no matter what you say because you cannot say anything that will persuade me to believe otherwise." If you take a stance like that - where the entire point is to smack down all differing opinions - you come off as close minded. Better to say "I belive this, what do you believe? Let's see how our opinions are similar and how they differ. Let's talk about why we see things differently, or similarly. This is an interesting conversation we're having."

That's what I meant by it doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be) a personal argument. I can't speak for the other people posting here, but I never wanted to change your opinion. I just wanted to hear more of it and to give my own views on the subject. If you want to argue, we can argue facts that can be proven/disproven. Opinion topics are better left for discussion, rather than debates.

/I do want to argue with the statement that 'higher vocabulary' means you can argue your point better. I know people who have great grasps of the English language, but if they know nothing about the world, the issue at hand, or methods of presenting and defeating a stance, they can't argue for crap. You could counter them without using any word above a third grade reading level. ;p

[Kionon]

x_rex30:

I'm not asking for support. I was asking for consideration and discussion. Although I did specifically ask for you to remain civilized and impersonal. Name calling is unacceptable everywhere, and the forums are no exception.

Arigatomina:

I apologize for my lack of clarity. I agree with almost everything you said. My intention was to provoke discussion, not to stifle it. I never stated that counters would be objective. Of course they would be subjective. No one would ever necessarily give in. That wasn't the point here. The point was to get the issue out in the open. Besides, I can be persuaded to believe otherwise. It happens a lot. I've said that I adapt and change on reevaluation. Since I don't take a stance of being unchangable, I do not feel I come off as close-minded. I am open to reevaluation.

The whole point was to see how our opinions are similiar and how they differ. What we agree on, and what we disagree on. I don't want to shut anyone out (although it sounds like a few individuals want to shut me out). I still don't understand what you meant by personal argument, but I'll let it go. It doesn't seem important if we agree on the thread's purpose. I disagree that opinions are not debateable, but I'll aquiesce. Discussion is a much better word here.

Clearly I failed to communicate that you have to be able to use higher vocabulary effectively. If you can't, knowing a whole lot of words won't help. In this sense, I meant being effective with your words.

I will say, however, we are still off-topic. How do your opinions differ from mine in ways you didn't already state?

[Arigatomina]

I disagree that opinions are not debateable, but I'll aquiesce. Discussion is a much better word here.

Ah, they're debatable, debates on opinion issues just lead to flame wars around here, so discussions are safer. ^.~

How do your opinions differ from mine in ways you didn't already state?

I think it's an impasse. We didn't agree on the idea of theme, so there's not much point talking theme versus story. Mostly I think I'm agreeing to disagree.

When I watch an amv, if the anime is familiar to me, certain scenes evoke certain emotional responses from me. If those scenes (from any number of sources) are combined together with nice editing, they'll make for a combined emotional response from me. For example, if you take all of my favorite romance scenes from all the anime I love, and put them in a well edited video to a poignant song I love, it will be a thematic romance video - the theme is 'scenes that elicit a romantic emotional response from me as the viewer'. There's no need for a story, so long as the scenes have meaning to me, I get my response. In that case, with a theme (story or no story), the video is a success because it evoked an emotional response from me.

For you, if I understand your stance, the story is what causes the response in you. It doesn't matter if a scene makes you feel happy or sad by itself - maybe you don't attach certain responses to scenes when you watch anime. So when those scenes are combined in a video, according to the theme, you get nothing from it but random scenes that mean nothing to you. In that case, without a story, the video is pointless and a failure because it does nothing for you.

If that's the difference, we'd *have* to agree to disagree.

[Kionon]

If that's the difference, we'd *have* to agree to disagree.

Yep, it is. And I think you bring up an excellent and truthful point about the way I watch anime, or anything with a story at all. I attach emotions to scenes based on what came before. Remove a scene from its chronology and typically it will mean nothing to me unless an effort is made to tie it back into a storyline with other clips. I suppose in this sense, what you understand as "theme-only" videos simply do not work for me. Granted, this refers only to dramatic videos.

Going off on another vein but within topic, assuming we agree to disagree about theme vs. story, what do you feel is necessary for an effective multi-source amv with story coherency? I'm curious to know your views.

[godix]

Name calling is unacceptable everywhere, and the forums are no exception.

Boy, you really are a poopyhead aren't you?