a-m-v.org Condones Art Theft?

[76]

well, the only way to solve this problem would be to shut down the org.

*jumps in a bush and waits for angry mob to form

[Tsunami Jones]

are fan artists in some higher ground than the people who make "official art"?

Depending on who you ask, yeah But the same can be said of any similar hobbyist group. There's always those who think because they do something out of "love" and not for money, etc. are more "pure" than those who do.

so then why is it okay to steal from the original creators but not fan artists?

Because double standards are fun?

[downwithpants]

so then why is it okay to steal from the original creators but not fan artists?

we're supposed to credit the original creators. in the case of banners, it's assumed the banner creator didn't create the drawings from hand, although that can get murky with simpler visuals designs.

[wurpess]

Only the vocal forum members condone it.

I am vocal, and I never once said it was ok.

AND another thing, I don't think that Mike was trying to "take credit" for the art, so I don't feel that this is the same as people who steal whole videos and try to claim them as theirs.

Exactly. I've been pointing out that while both are wrong in the end, there is a difference between theft and using without permission. While both involve taking things that don't belong to you, theft generally involves taking possession and claiming the item as your own. Using without permission could be either premeditated or accidental (as in the person might have thought it was ok to use or that they had permission, etc.), but either way, the person never tries to claim the item as theirs and it is usually being used as an aid or tool to finish off something the user had already done, not just to have or exploit on its own like an actual thief would. And the 'using-without-permission' person will usually gladly return and/or stop using it if you don't attack them and just kindly point out that its yours and would like it back. So there's no reason to cry 'THIEF!' and attack the person right off as I have seen (and experienced) before, if it might just be a simple, easily resolved, misunderstanding. (Of course, I'm just saying this in general, since I'm not sure everything that may have happened behind the scenes and leading up to this.)




Though on a different note, other banner makers might want to think about doing what I started doing. I put a disclaimer on my prof stated that I didn't draw any of the artwork on my banners, and, since artists may not be named where I found the images, invite them to contact me and I will credit them on my prof. (Or remove it if they wish.) And as I find artists and/or are contacted, I credit them on my prof. A bit more work and not a guarantee of no more drama, but still less likely to result in an inbox full of nasty pms from out of the blue.

[JaddziaDax]

although that can get murky with simpler visuals designs.

haha I'll never use my own artwork for a banner again :3
(and yes, those are my own drawings...)

[Arigatomina]

so then why is it okay to steal from the original creators but not fan artists?

It's not a matter of it being okay to taken an anime and claim you crated it. That's not okay. In fact it's stupid and anyone with common sense will call the idiot a liar for claiming he created Naruto. When we use anime footage, we're not claiming we made it. Even if we didn't credit all the anime used in each amv, everyone would still know - common sense - that an amv using Naruto footage is using anime footage made by the creators of the Naruto anime and that it's not original art done by the editor.

Banners that use fanart are different. There's no credit aside from the name of the person who submitted the banner. If the banner uses anime, you know it's anime - and was created by the people who made the anime. If the banner uses fanart, you know it's fanart - but there's no way of telling whose fanart it is because the only one credited is the creator of that banner.

Heck, I've recognized quite a few devart pics myself in banners. And you know what? Those pictures had signatures on them. The banner makers cropped sections with no signature, slapped it on their banner, and submitted it to the org. That's at least as bad as cropping the credits out of an amv, putting your studio wrapper on it, and uploading it to the org. We don't condone that, right?

Well, I know a lot of people *do* condone that. But the rules here don't condone it. Claiming someone else's amv as your own is not allowed on the org. Why should claiming someone else's fanart be okay?

And before I get the "but what about the fanart with no signature?" rebuttal - the banner maker downloading that picture from a random website to use in his banner knows the fanart isn't his. Would he download an annonymous amv from a random website and stick it in his vid? I hope not. Aside from being against the rules, it's just tacky.

I am vocal, and I never once said it was ok.

I'm vocal, too, if a little late to the bashfest. I never said it was okay, either.

[Vlad G Pohnert]

Well, i reported it to both the mod drop and the admin; after that I am done with the matter. Go ahead and have fun attacking my intelligence, children; I will not stoop down to the level at which you seem most comfortable.

I'm not suggesting that I support art being used from someone else or not here, but more the principle of how this was brought to light and your arguments

I feel insulted with your posts assuming just because it got accepted (and assumed we knew about it) that we all here support your claim that we condone such actions or act totally childish with this situation. I as a admin would of appreciated a bit of a better "heads-up" in how this was worded to begin with or more of an attempt at contacting us at bit more rather then hearing it like this post of the situation (you said you e-mailed us and then just assumed we ignored and just didn't bother any further - you said it "after that I was done with the matter") rather then this and dragging everyone else into the discussion (what exactly did you expect people to say when you start a topic the way you did?).

Unfortunately, the tons of stuff get "ripped off" on the internet (even works of other people claiming their own - happens to AMVs too) and we can't know about everything that happens or who stole what as there are tons of banners submitted all the time...

My suggestion in the future is if you can't get a hold of us (we get lots of mail and we do this in our spare time too and sometimes things do get missed), then maybe ask about it in the forums in a more "diplomatic" way rather them just making accusations right off the bat. Also, did you actually talk to the artist to see how they feels about it? So far we’ve only heard it from you and have no idea what’s the artists position on it

Vlad

[JaddziaDax]

Ari: when it comes to banners and fanart I don't think that anyone here really truthfully assumes the art was made by the banner maker, so saying that it's the same thing as full video amv theft is going a little over board imho..

yea, steps can be taken to make sure the proper people get credit, or ask permission, but its not fair to make it out that every banner maker is out to get the poor unsuspecting fan-artist. (Which is how the original poster made it sound).

The closest it can come to imho is "clip theft" (and there are people who don't know better on that as well..) especially because as you pointed out, they used someone else's work and CROPPED it to fit the banner - they didn't erase their signature and claim the whole piece as something they made themselves. And technically when you think about it "clip theft" is the whole point of our hobby.

Truthfully when I saw the banner I didn't assume the banner creator had made the art in it. 99% of the time such is the case, the other 1% would be if someone TOLD me that they drew it, and if they didn't then they would be lying and therefore the horrid type of criminal that you speak of.

Actually when I saw the banner I kinda wondered where it DID come from.

[JaddziaDax]

pardon my double post...

But as I said before 1: I don't think Mike was trying to claim the art in the banner as his own, he is not that type of person as far as I know. Now if he was spouting off in his journal and/or profile that the art was his that would be another matter, but he's not.

And 2: if the original artist wants banners using their work taken down, then I'm not opposed to that. Same goes for people who take the time to create the anime and the music that we lovingly "rip off" as well. What I do have a problem with is is how this person came across in their posts (accusing and attacking).

[Arigatomina]

Ari: when it comes to banners and fanart I don't think that anyone here really truthfully assumes the art was made by the banner maker...

Yeah, I think most people take for granted that banner makers on the org never create their own fanart. That most banners on the org using fanart are using the fanart without permission. That's kinda the whole problem.

The org is to fanartists what the tube is to amv-editors. Some people don't mind having their vids used without credit as "source footage" by people too lazy to rip the anime themselves. A lot of people do mind, and it's against the rules on the org to do that. Some fanartists don't mind having their art used without credit as "source art" by banner makers too lazy to browse official art galleries for that anime. Most fanartists do mind. The tube makes it really hard to remove an amv, or even an anime, because they require the original creator to contact them before they'll take action - and even then, that's no guarantee another person won't have it reuploaded tomorrow. The org makes it really hard to remove fanart, because we require the original artists to email the admin before we'll take action - and even then, that's no guarantee another banner maker won't be using that same fanart pic tomorrow.

Personally, I don't care about my vids being cannibalized on the tube anymore. The tube is full of frankenvids and they do little to stop it, that's just the kind of crap site the tube is. There's no redeeming them and it's pointless to try. I think it's natural for fanartists to get upset with the org when we're doing the same thing to fanart that the tube is doing to amvs. The difference is - we're supposed to be better than the tube. We don't allow frankenvids here. We shouldn't allow frankenbanners here, either. Why do we?

I can download a random org vid and take for granted that the creator didn't use anyone else's amv to make his vid. And if I find out he did, I can link that vid in the mod drop box and it will be removed. I don't have to be the creator of the original vid. Frankenvids are frankenvids and they're not allowed here. I'd like to be able to look at a random banner and take for granted that the creator didn't use anyone else's fanart to make it. And if I find out he did, I want to be able to drop it in the mod box and have it removed. Because I have as much respect for fanartists as I do for amv editors. We don't cannibalize each other, let's not cannibalize them.

If nothing else, we should make it easier for fanartists to find out what the org's stance is on the subject. Add something to the FAQ telling fanartists they have to email the admin with proof and links if they want the banners using their fanart taken down. They won't bother coming onto the forum if they can find the answer on the Site FAQ.