[Lossless] Ut Video Codec

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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Johny-115 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:11 pm

post-it wrote:
Johny-115 wrote: i am using cs5 64bit adobe media encoder, after effects, premiere pro ..
which has nothing to do with storage problem for your Codec.

The editor is not utilizing 32bit-Alpha Level Images. Use Huffy to store what your working-on.

All of your images suggest that your using 16-bit color pallets instead of 32-bit color pallets.
[[ you might as well be editing in Xvid! ]]


why do u mention alpha ... where is alpha involved ... also iam not even using editor yet, no utilizing
i just re-encode original mkv video stream in adobe media encoder to UT video ... thats origin of samples (but ofc its same even in premiere and AAE)
and as i said ... there are only two options considering color pallets ... 8-bit and 24-bit ("render at maximum depth" option) ... they both look same in case of 420 and 422

also huffy is much slower isnt it ?
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Mister Hatt » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:12 am

Adobe Media Encoder? Found your problem. Related: the green shift is caused by converting to RGB using the wrong colour matrix, not using AME will probably fix that as well. Either way, there is no problem with UTVideo here, just your stupid method of conversion and handling.
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Johny-115 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:48 am

Mister Hatt wrote:Adobe Media Encoder? Found your problem. Related: the green shift is caused by converting to RGB using the wrong colour matrix, not using AME will probably fix that as well. Either way, there is no problem with UTVideo here, just your stupid method of conversion and handling.


source > UT RGB .... i checked "render at maximum depth" option ... and its 100% lossless, its same
source > UT YUV 420/422 ... still nothing helps
source > Lagarith ... does the same thing as UT YUV, slight banding of gradients
source > Cineform ... its OK

- i dunno maybe its normal ? ... if the image isnt color manipulated like i did, it gets slightly visibly only after few re-encodes, but point is its just not lossless process
- Lagarith does it too, so it doesnt look like UTV problem ... but why is cineform and RGB UTV allright ?

Also how can you say my method is stupid ... UT video codec is meant for editing isnt it ? then how should i edit it if Premiere Pro CS5 doesnt work lossless, it should ... i get it, its not probably coz of codec, but then tell me how to approach this, if i recall ... after effects from adobe package has extra option of actually choosing color space ? could try that ... but dunno which ... i thought point of this forum is to help and give advices, not call people stupid .. i just wanna understand this 100% so my process is 100% ok
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Cannonaire » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:35 pm

Even though you're using lossless codecs, which is great, changing the colorspace is not lossless. It has an acceptable amount of loss when done sparingly and only when required, but there is also the chance of things getting messed up if it is converted using the wrong matrix.

UT Video most likely isn't the problem. The problem is probably that Adobe is converting using the wrong color matrix. The solution is to change the colorspace to RGB in Avisynth instead and use the correct color matrix. Put the color conversion on the last line of your script. Since it will already be RGB, the Adobe application will not need to convert the colorspace. Also, be sure to use UTVideo in RGB mode after converting.
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Mister Hatt » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:12 am

Technically if you use the correct colourimetry and matrix it is 'lossless', although different manufacturers of gear still have their own unique spin on things. Might want to explain how to convert planar colour to RGB with the correct matrix though, I doubt the guy is going to actually read the docu.
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Cannonaire » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:23 am

I'm not exactly knowledgeable when it comes to colourimetry, but let's see how well I do after a quick wiki primer.

Your screencaps are 1280x720, so I'm guessing you're either using an HD source or upscaling for some reason. Anyway, if it is an HD source, I think the correct matrix to use in avisynth is 'rec709' (DVD would be 'rec601' I believe, and this probably isn't accurate for all DVDs).

Try this line at the end of your script:
Code: Select all
ConvertToRGB(matrix="rec709", interlaced=false)

Like I said, I'm not an expert on this particular topic, but this might be the solution to your problem.
Now please excuse me while I read more about colourimetry.
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Johny-115 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:01 pm

so iam back after some testing, i played with changing color space in AAE and rendering different versions, didnt worked though, tried sRGB, AdobeRGB, HDTV 709, HDTV 709 16-235 and few others

but what i noticed though is ... i exported with uncompressed "V210 10-bit YUV" (its 4:2:2) and that was 99,9% OK, just few pixels different but no slight banding
so also if i recall cineform is somehow 10-bit okay ?

so .... so far
source >>> any RGB (including UT Video) = 100%
source >>> 10-bit YUV (cineform, V210) = 99,9%
source >>> 8-bit YUV (UT Video, Lagarith) = like 98%, slight banding

so anybody can tell me whats happening here ? because am i wrong in thinking it cant be wong color matrix issue ? coz otherwise V210 which is YUV 4:2:2 would be wrong in same way as UT Video YUV 4:2:0 ... coz its same situation of source into YUV

so i dont understad these color depth (8-bit, 10-bit) vs. color space (RGB, YUV) relations .... but whats even more confusing is that source should be just YUV 4:2:0 and 8-bit !!! ... wo why V210 10-bit works perfect and 8-bit UT video does not ... isnt it possible that MediaInfo says it wrong, that it is not 8-bit source or something ?

here is source video mediainfo screen http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3358708/temp/orig-sds.png .. its one of those sort of overkill [Redacted.]
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Johny-115 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:38 pm

PS: i manged to import unchanged video stream from source to AAE and under "Interpret Footage > Color Management" i found that "Embedded Profile" realy is "HDTV (Rec. 709)"
but no difference with that, also if iam not wrong that must mean that AME, and Premiere read that "Embedded Profile" too
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby mirkosp » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:46 am

Read the rules!
There shall be no posts containing or on how to obtain warez, crackz, serialz, emulators, porn/hentai, bootlegs, or illegally obtain downloadable anime episodes, music, or any other sort of copyrighted material. You will be banned without warning for such posts.

Post redacted. And this is just a warning, but next time it will be a ban.
One thing to notice is that the group you mentioned zeroes the SEI, as it's clearly visible in the screenshot you made (Writing Library and Encoding Settings are zeroed, if you look). That breaks compatibility with some decoders. Their encodes have varying quality depending on how they're handled, too, and they often keep upscales even if they are obvious. Another thing is that the filesize is just inflated much more than could ever be needed...

Also, my guess at your issue is that what's handling the YUV to RGB conversion during playback is bad at it (hint: swscale has some quirks with it and does in fact introduce banding when converting colorspace).
Keep everything YV12 even if you see banding on screen, as long as you're not doing an actual conversion to RGB in the content, that's not actually representing the actual video it's there. Rather, what you should care for is make sure that, when watching the final x264 encode, it looks fine when viewed with a good renderer, like for example madVR.
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Mister Hatt » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:52 am

Another thing to note is that the colour profiles in AE are completely separate from colour matrices, as is the bit-depth of each channel. 10-bit is useless for you seeing as your decoder is only capable of 8-bit and even worse your monitor is probably only 6-bit (particularly common for laptops, and EVERY apple product.)

The correct thign to do is ignore colour related everything in your app entirely and handle it in avisynth. The function and parameters to use are as Cannonaire suggested. I would also advise that you quit right now as judging on the content of mirko's post, your source material was encoded by the idiots at THORA who have destroyed anything in it resembling HD or allowing for proper decoding, which might in fact be your problem in the first place. Start again with decent footage.
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Johny-115 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:48 pm

Mister Hatt wrote:Another thing to note is that the colour profiles in AE are completely separate from colour matrices, as is the bit-depth of each channel. 10-bit is useless for you seeing as your decoder is only capable of 8-bit and even worse your monitor is probably only 6-bit (particularly common for laptops, and EVERY apple product.)

The correct thign to do is ignore colour related everything in your app entirely and handle it in avisynth. The function and parameters to use are as Cannonaire suggested. I would also advise that you quit right now as judging on the content of mirko's post, your source material was encoded by the idiots at THORA who have destroyed anything in it resembling HD or allowing for proper decoding, which might in fact be your problem in the first place. Start again with decent footage.


man do you understand that my original samples were hardly manipulated ? ... so that that differences could be more visible ?
coz i have still feeling like everybody thinks my problem is it looks like i posted it ... i said i "darkened" them ... the banding gets visible only after 2nd re-encode and still, not that much ... thats why i changed levels and contrast drastically ... but i wrote that, did you read that or just looked at pics and then talked ?

these are origs, and i dont think they can be much better
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3358708/temp/00 ... ill009.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3358708/temp/00 ... ill010.png

but anyway checking now other sources if they are handled different ...
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Cannonaire » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:49 pm

The screenshots you posted originally look as if they had been converted from one colorspace to another with the wrong matrix, so forgive us for jumping to conclusions. At least in my experience, after multiple successive re-encodes UTVideo remains lossless, and that is why we're blaming other steps in your process. Remember, we are trying to help. :)

Johny-115 wrote:- my editing process involves re-encoding it 3x times, so after that with what happens with 420/422, it damages visibly even without darkening it
- so also once it transfers chroma subsampling to that of codecs, why it gets worse and worse after every other recompress, its basically lossy

Would you explain your editing process to us please? It might give us better understanding to help you fix this problem.
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Johny-115 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:05 am

Cannonaire wrote:The screenshots you posted originally look as if they had been converted from one colorspace to another with the wrong matrix, so forgive us for jumping to conclusions. At least in my experience, after multiple successive re-encodes UTVideo remains lossless, and that is why we're blaming other steps in your process. Remember, we are trying to help. :)

Johny-115 wrote:- my editing process involves re-encoding it 3x times, so after that with what happens with 420/422, it damages visibly even without darkening it
- so also once it transfers chroma subsampling to that of codecs, why it gets worse and worse after every other recompress, its basically lossy

Would you explain your editing process to us please? It might give us better understanding to help you fix this problem.

well
1. i convert source to lossless intra frame with AME for AAE (coz while it can read source it encodes from it with errors)
2. process that in AAE (scene detection), export again in same lossless but individual clips
3. will edit that in Premeire and export to last (3rd) lossless ... and that encode to lossy etc.

i did this in short version to see how it goes with UTV 422 (as in my cpu utilization in premiere editing test, it was fastest) ... but noticed slight banding in last 3rd encode ... i dunno, its like every time it did that it lost bit of color definition, its not something u would probably notice in real live footage, but cgi advent children has some gentle gradients and i just noticed that sky was not perfect

but i think il go with the RGB editing, size is larger lot (but i dont care) and cpu utiliztion in premiere pro playback is about 10% higher (35% instead 25%) ... yeap theres definitely something wrong in process, coz even if it was really weird first convert of color matrix or whatever .. then it should be same all other encodes, but it isnt, it degrades every other, so everytime it understands the specification of file in wrong way and does some difference in re-encode ... but well ... RGB is 100% same and i think it shouldnt do any problem

also just now, just to be sure if its that particular release issue or what ... i tried to do same stuff with clip from my camcorder 1080p AVCHD
i encoded it into 422 and 420 UT Video ... it did exactly same thing .. then i took the encodes did 2nd encodes from that in AME again, it got even worse, its same, and its completely different source (yet 420 YUV) ... although iam quite sure it wouldnt be possible to see these differences in this live footage in result, but nontheless theres something wrong as its little different every other reencode

also last idea, can monitor color profile interfere into this stuff ? my photoshop says at startup "the monitor profile "samsung natural 1 icm" appears to be defective. please rerun your calibration software" ignore profile/use anyway... i just hit ignore, everything seems ok
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby Mister Hatt » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:17 am

I skipped over most of your last post as it's irrelevant and it shows you don't understand colourimetry at all. The problem is the colourspace conversion done by AME and as such we've told you NOT to use Adobe to convert your footage into a format you can more easily manipulate, which is what I have said quite possibly three times now.

Monitor colour profiles are not the same as colourspaces or colour matrices and have no bearing on your problem at all. From looking at your images (and largely ignoring what you actually wrote seeing as it's either wrong or irrelevant) it seems to be that your problem is a colourspace conversion issue.

Also, arbitrarily switching between 422 and 420 can cause banding although on the chroma plane and not the luma, which is what you're actually seeing, so this is not the issue. Just a warning though, carelessly switching between planar formats is something you should avoid when possible unless you actually know what you are doing, which I am fairly confident you don't.

tl;dr your RGB conversion or AVC decoding is the problem, do either of these a different/better way and your problem should disappear.
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Re: [Lossless] Ut Video Codec

Postby mirkosp » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:26 am

What Mister Hatt said is correct. You should do the first two steps with avisynth and virtualdub, while keeping everything yuv420. At that point even if it looks wrong on screen while editing, it's not of your concern, as you're keeping the info yuv420 and the banding is introduced from a bad convertion to rgb in premiere, if there happens to be banding in premiere anyway, at that point.
When you export from premiere make sure once again that you export as yuv420, and then load that into zarx264gui and encode. If the final encode has the banding it means one of two things
1) The decoder or renderer or whatever is handling the yv12 to rgb conversion during playback is doing it wrong
2) There was banding to begin with
Now however, since your source does not appear to be banded, it would just have to be the former option, which is why I suggested to use madVR in case, after using avisynth+virtualdub to make lossless clips and making sure you properly keep everything yv12 from start to finish, you still see banding.
In the off-chance you do not know how to make lossless clips with avisynth and virtualdub, I suggest that you Read ErMaC & AbsoluteDestiny's Friendly AMV Guides Lovingly Overhauled Largely by Zarxrax.
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