Avisynth 64 Troubles...

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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Mister Hatt » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:32 pm

Stop using old avisynth, seriously, 2.6 is out, use it.
Stop reading avs scripts in your media player or NLE, it is NOT made for that and will be terribly slow. I don't know why you want to do this instead of lossless, but if you really feel like waiting a few seconds for each frame, then go ahead.
Avisynth in 64bit is dumb anyway, don't use it. There is NO advantage in doing so.
MT is also dumb, and causes all sorts of problems that you probably aren't even aware of. Explaining half of this is too difficult so :trustme: orz.

@pwolf: if you still don't kow, DeViL.dll is a library for handling PNG files, it is mostly used by the imagesource/read/write functions.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Pwolf » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:22 pm

Mister Hatt wrote:Stop using old avisynth, seriously, 2.6 is out, use it.
Stop reading avs scripts in your media player or NLE, it is NOT made for that and will be terribly slow. I don't know why you want to do this instead of lossless, but if you really feel like waiting a few seconds for each frame, then go ahead.
Avisynth in 64bit is dumb anyway, don't use it. There is NO advantage in doing so.
MT is also dumb, and causes all sorts of problems that you probably aren't even aware of. Explaining half of this is too difficult so :trustme: orz.

@pwolf: if you still don't kow, DeViL.dll is a library for handling PNG files, it is mostly used by the imagesource/read/write functions.


I'm going to disagree that there "no" advantage in using avisynth 64bit. I've been using avisynth in premiere for years and it's been very useful. upgrading to CS5 forces me to use 64bit. For simple import and IVTC, thats fine. If i was going to do any more filtering, i would convert to lossless. The loss in speed is too much of a bottleneck to my workflow. Actually, in most cases, i usually just convert to lossess. It doesn't take me long to do the encoding and i have plenty of space. I also wouldn't use 64bit avisynth to do it either.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Castor Troy » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:20 pm

Pwolf wrote:
Mister Hatt wrote:Stop using old avisynth, seriously, 2.6 is out, use it.
Stop reading avs scripts in your media player or NLE, it is NOT made for that and will be terribly slow. I don't know why you want to do this instead of lossless, but if you really feel like waiting a few seconds for each frame, then go ahead.
Avisynth in 64bit is dumb anyway, don't use it. There is NO advantage in doing so.
MT is also dumb, and causes all sorts of problems that you probably aren't even aware of. Explaining half of this is too difficult so :trustme: orz.

@pwolf: if you still don't kow, DeViL.dll is a library for handling PNG files, it is mostly used by the imagesource/read/write functions.


I'm going to disagree that there "no" advantage in using avisynth 64bit. I've been using avisynth in premiere for years and it's been very useful. upgrading to CS5 forces me to use 64bit. For simple import and IVTC, thats fine. If i was going to do any more filtering, i would convert to lossless. The loss in speed is too much of a bottleneck to my workflow. Actually, in most cases, i usually just convert to lossess. It doesn't take me long to do the encoding and i have plenty of space. I also wouldn't use 64bit avisynth to do it either.


I can't even edit anymore without complete access to every bit of footage thanks to using AVS scripts. I used to make huffy/lagariths of everything and it was the worst feeling ever when you realized you forgot to huffy/lag one part and you deleted the vobs off your hard drive. :x

Then again, hard drive space was small back then, but now it's become affordable for large amounts of it. :)
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby mirkosp » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:53 pm

I just convert whole BDs to lossless. It's not like it's an issue when 2TB drives are 80 bucks...
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby EvaFan » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:40 pm

Mister Hatt wrote:Stop reading avs scripts in your media player or NLE, it is NOT made for that and will be terribly slow. I don't know why you want to do this instead of lossless, but if you really feel like waiting a few seconds for each frame, then go ahead.

You're right, you don't know and I don't really care to tell you why but let me just say I don't have any problems with FPS when I edit with an AVS.
Mister Hatt wrote:Avisynth in 64bit is dumb anyway, don't use it. There is NO advantage in doing so.

Every plugin I've used with it so far has had a speed boost (some minor, some major) even without MT. All the plugins I use regularly have been ported to 64 now so I don't have any problems. That by itself is an advantage... The doom9 thread is all so litered with ppl showing speed advantage benchmarks.
Mister Hatt wrote:MT is also dumb, and causes all sorts of problems that you probably aren't even aware of. Explaining half of this is too difficult so :trustme: orz.

Ok, I'll go ahead and believe you that it has all sorts of problems that I'm not aware of and that its dumb even though a simple avs line from mt triples my speed, however, since I'm not aware of the problems and am able to achieve a result that I like... There is no reason for me not to use it. I'm not a video analyst and neither are most of the people that watch AMVs. They aren't going to watch it and notice, this guy clearly used MT in avisynth causing this error in the video quality...

I might have to wait till next week to test the avs import plugin due to crazy holidays.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Mister Hatt » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:11 pm

Pwolf wrote:
Mister Hatt wrote:Stop using old avisynth, seriously, 2.6 is out, use it.
Stop reading avs scripts in your media player or NLE, it is NOT made for that and will be terribly slow. I don't know why you want to do this instead of lossless, but if you really feel like waiting a few seconds for each frame, then go ahead.
Avisynth in 64bit is dumb anyway, don't use it. There is NO advantage in doing so.
MT is also dumb, and causes all sorts of problems that you probably aren't even aware of. Explaining half of this is too difficult so :trustme: orz.

@pwolf: if you still don't kow, DeViL.dll is a library for handling PNG files, it is mostly used by the imagesource/read/write functions.


I'm going to disagree that there "no" advantage in using avisynth 64bit. I've been using avisynth in premiere for years and it's been very useful. upgrading to CS5 forces me to use 64bit. For simple import and IVTC, thats fine. If i was going to do any more filtering, i would convert to lossless. The loss in speed is too much of a bottleneck to my workflow. Actually, in most cases, i usually just convert to lossess. It doesn't take me long to do the encoding and i have plenty of space. I also wouldn't use 64bit avisynth to do it either.

How can you call IVTC simple if you're using a DVD and avisynth? There are, to my knowledge, only three people on this forum who can IVTC properly. So why bother taking the time to use AVS at all if you're not one of them?

I still do not agree that using a frameserver in an NLE is the right idea. Lossless is faster unless you suck at encoding/decoding it, especially when you consider frame access times compared to avisynth which is very reliant on the source plugins not being aids, as well as the processing time. Every time you access a frame outside the framecache, you are re-running the filterchain on it, which isn't exactly fast, especially when you're using temporal filters like field matching.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Castor Troy » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:44 am

Mister Hatt wrote:How can you call IVTC simple if you're using a DVD and avisynth? There are, to my knowledge, only three people on this forum who can IVTC properly. So why bother taking the time to use AVS at all if you're not one of them?


I agree ErMaC, AbsoluteDestiny, and Zarxrax were quite the pioneers.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Pwolf » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:05 am

Mister Hatt wrote:
Pwolf wrote:
Mister Hatt wrote:Stop using old avisynth, seriously, 2.6 is out, use it.
Stop reading avs scripts in your media player or NLE, it is NOT made for that and will be terribly slow. I don't know why you want to do this instead of lossless, but if you really feel like waiting a few seconds for each frame, then go ahead.
Avisynth in 64bit is dumb anyway, don't use it. There is NO advantage in doing so.
MT is also dumb, and causes all sorts of problems that you probably aren't even aware of. Explaining half of this is too difficult so :trustme: orz.

@pwolf: if you still don't kow, DeViL.dll is a library for handling PNG files, it is mostly used by the imagesource/read/write functions.


I'm going to disagree that there "no" advantage in using avisynth 64bit. I've been using avisynth in premiere for years and it's been very useful. upgrading to CS5 forces me to use 64bit. For simple import and IVTC, thats fine. If i was going to do any more filtering, i would convert to lossless. The loss in speed is too much of a bottleneck to my workflow. Actually, in most cases, i usually just convert to lossess. It doesn't take me long to do the encoding and i have plenty of space. I also wouldn't use 64bit avisynth to do it either.

How can you call IVTC simple if you're using a DVD and avisynth? There are, to my knowledge, only three people on this forum who can IVTC properly. So why bother taking the time to use AVS at all if you're not one of them?

I still do not agree that using a frameserver in an NLE is the right idea. Lossless is faster unless you suck at encoding/decoding it, especially when you consider frame access times compared to avisynth which is very reliant on the source plugins not being aids, as well as the processing time. Every time you access a frame outside the framecache, you are re-running the filterchain on it, which isn't exactly fast, especially when you're using temporal filters like field matching.


I never said it would be a "proper" ivtc. For short and fast filter chains, using aviysnth in an NLE isn't all that bad if you don't have the disk space to convert to lossless (was the case back in the day). I personally try to convert all my stuff to lossless now, i also have the resource to make it more worth my while (CPU and disk space). I don't expect everyone to have that luxury. So while it is better to convert to lossless, if someone wants to edit with the scipts in an NLE, i don't see any reason for them not to. They're the ones who are going to have to deal with the slow editing.

There are, to my knowledge, only three people on this forum who can IVTC properly. So why bother taking the time to use AVS at all if you're not one of them?


Because only 3 people on this forum would notice a bad IVTC.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby mirkosp » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:17 pm

Pwolf wrote:
Mister Hatt wrote:There are, to my knowledge, only three people on this forum who can IVTC properly. So why bother taking the time to use AVS at all if you're not one of them?
Because only 3 people on this forum would notice a bad IVTC.

Actually, a bad IVTC is prolly more obvious that you'd think it would be, really... :sweat:
That said, there is a difference between "bad" and "acceptable," but Hatt doesn't quite agree on that... :uhoh:
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Pwolf » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:34 pm

mirkosp wrote:
Pwolf wrote:
Mister Hatt wrote:There are, to my knowledge, only three people on this forum who can IVTC properly. So why bother taking the time to use AVS at all if you're not one of them?
Because only 3 people on this forum would notice a bad IVTC.

Actually, a bad IVTC is prolly more obvious that you'd think it would be, really... :sweat:
That said, there is a difference between "bad" and "acceptable," but Hatt doesn't quite agree on that... :uhoh:


"bad" by what ever standard he's thinking of.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Castor Troy » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:19 pm

mirkosp wrote:
Pwolf wrote:
Mister Hatt wrote:There are, to my knowledge, only three people on this forum who can IVTC properly. So why bother taking the time to use AVS at all if you're not one of them?
Because only 3 people on this forum would notice a bad IVTC.

Actually, a bad IVTC is prolly more obvious that you'd think it would be, really... :sweat:
That said, there is a difference between "bad" and "acceptable," but Hatt doesn't quite agree on that... :uhoh:


One of my recent videos has bad IVTC..... I won't say which one. :cry:
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Mister Hatt » Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:04 am

Castor Troy wrote:
Mister Hatt wrote:How can you call IVTC simple if you're using a DVD and avisynth? There are, to my knowledge, only three people on this forum who can IVTC properly. So why bother taking the time to use AVS at all if you're not one of them?


I agree ErMaC, AbsoluteDestiny, and Zarxrax were quite the pioneers.
Maybe you missed the massive amount of misleading, inadequate, and outright incorrect information in their guides then? I wouldn't say any of them are pioneers nor are any of them capable of a competent IVTC as far as I have seen. If I really had to name people, I'd be talking about TheRyuu, mirkosp, and myself. Nobody else has demonstrated that they both fully understand how IVTC works and that they are able to manually do so if need be. AFAIK nobody else even uses basic avisynth overrides let alone a tool like YATTA.

A lot of people "don't notice" bad IVTC, but then they complain about lack of smooth footage and whatnot without realising this is what caused it. Same goes for an enormous amount of artifacts I see around the place, even blurring and smoothing can be caused by a bad IVTC, as well as uneven fades, pans, and luma changes. People often don't realise this is caused by a crappy IVTC and end up filtering it to death.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby EvaFan » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:51 am

Why is it that all I ever see you doing on this forum is complaining. That guide was wrote YEARS ago and served its purpose. It wasn't wrote with the idea: "Here's everything you need to know about everything", it was: "Here's something to get you started, after that your on your own". Considering the majority of the org knew nothing about avisynth back then, they were "pioneers" to us. Your attitude and complaining does nothing to help people here. Just like earlier telling me not to use MT but not even explaining why. If your that lazy, you don't belong on a forum where ppl come in need of help.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Mister Hatt » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:45 am

If the guide is meant to be basic, 70% of it is not required knowledge and in no way helps anyone. A large amount of it is also misleading and/or outright wrong. I don't know where 'years ago' came into it given that it was last edited only a few months ago.

The reason I told you not to use MT is because MT in avisynth isn't true multithreading anyway. It splits your picture into regions and then filters them separately. This has all kinds of problems related to the seams though.

Nobody that actually produces an amv actually cares about video quality, so why they use avisynth at all is a complete mystery to me. I don't complain; rather I speak critically in the hope that people will give up and stop attempting to merge bad music with crappy looking video. There is no such thing as a good amv.

If people come here for help, they should either read the stickies before asking a question that has already been answered, or they should at least give the thread a useful title and paste their script. They should stop using old shit and update to the latest stable versions of everything. This alone would probably solve a good half of the problems outright.

Avisynth is not use friendly, it is a programmers hack for processing video. Regular people should not be using it. If they cannot at least read the documentation, they don't deserve help in the first place. Reading the docu would solve a fairly big chunk of the remaining problems. Maybe if people were a bit proactive there wouldn't be so many stupid threads where ignorant people complain about me being mean. Harden up princess, *I* am not the lazy one.
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Re: Avisynth 64 Troubles...

Postby Pwolf » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:54 am

Mister Hatt wrote:If the guide is meant to be basic, 70% of it is not required knowledge and in no way helps anyone. A large amount of it is also misleading and/or outright wrong. I don't know where 'years ago' came into it given that it was last edited only a few months ago.

The reason I told you not to use MT is because MT in avisynth isn't true multithreading anyway. It splits your picture into regions and then filters them separately. This has all kinds of problems related to the seams though.

Nobody that actually produces an amv actually cares about video quality, so why they use avisynth at all is a complete mystery to me. I don't complain; rather I speak critically in the hope that people will give up and stop attempting to merge bad music with crappy looking video. There is no such thing as a good amv.

If people come here for help, they should either read the stickies before asking a question that has already been answered, or they should at least give the thread a useful title and paste their script. They should stop using old shit and update to the latest stable versions of everything. This alone would probably solve a good half of the problems outright.

Avisynth is not use friendly, it is a programmers hack for processing video. Regular people should not be using it. If they cannot at least read the documentation, they don't deserve help in the first place. Reading the docu would solve a fairly big chunk of the remaining problems. Maybe if people were a bit proactive there wouldn't be so many stupid threads where ignorant people complain about me being mean. Harden up princess, *I* am not the lazy one.


While I actually value you're opinion 99% of the time cause you actually know what you are talking about, you have to remember we only do this for fun, so it doesn't have to be perfect. It's not like any of the stuff we do actually make gets put into production or broadcast.

What ever you might think, Avisynth is a great tool even if you don't know how to utilize it to the fullest. You talk like all avisynth does is make the video quality better and thats all it should be used for. That bullshit. Avisynth is used to process video so who the fuck cares what the person does with it? If they manage to make it a little better then it was or if they make it worse, so the fuck what? I value good video quality but there's a line, it doesn't need to be perfect. What about just using it as a frameserver without any filters? Avisynth is a tool. Just because you don't know how to use every fucking filter (which aren't built into the main library mind you) doesn't mean you shouldn't use it.

For someone who doesn't watch AMVs and pretty much hates and thinks all amv editors are idiots, you spend a lot of time here. Part of me thinks you here just to help, which very well might be the reason you stick around. But another part of me thinks you're just here to tell us how much we suck and how much smarter you are. If thats the reason then just leave. You are not going to change how people do things by telling them they are idiots. Fuck, you aren't going to change how people do things by actually being nice to them. I've tried many times over the years to get people to at least use avisynth to make their videos presentable and it hasn't worked. Just getting someone to even read the guides is impossible.

If you plan on staying around (I doubt what ever i say would make you leave anyway), don't be such a fucking jackass all the time. Instead of getting on your soapbox and letting us all know how useless and pointless something is or we should stop using something in favor of something else, explain to the people why. According to the project page on sourceforge 2.6 is still alpha. I don't consider that stable. is the project maintained somewhere else or are you using software that isn't stable for all your processing (which doesn't sound all the good if you have quality in mind)?

You have a lot of good knowledge, just stop being an asshole about it.
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