What is the org doing wrong?

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What is the org doing wrong?

Postby godix » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:24 am

First, some observations

- Last Dec I uploaded a video to the org. A couple weeks later, I uploaded the exact same video to amvnews.ru. Neither was under a contest, special promotion, or anything that would draw any more attention to it than any other other typical video. On the org I did an announcement thread, link in my sig, and other normal acceptable pimping. On amvnews.ru I did nothing other than upload the vid. Currently the org entry has 1025 hits and 233 downloads (including previews). The amvnews.ru entry has 6475 hits and 1162 downloads (no idea if that includes previews or not).

- I just had a video which premiered in the AKROSS contest, it was put on their website earlier today. Having been up less than 24 hours, it has been viewed almost 1000 times already. Now granted, AKROSS is a big deal sort of contest and that alone drives a lot of views, but even so, AKROSS is currently only 60 or 70 hits away from matching the attention the above org copy has gotten in ten months. Except it happened on AKROSS in one day.

- One of my vids was a finalist in several AWA Pro categories, a similarly large contest, and in the five months it's been on the org it has yet to come close to a thousand views.

- I have had videos make it at least to the semi-finals in VCAs before as well, and one of those which has been up for three years now still has less downloads than amvnews.ru, which was not a contest submission.

- I don't believe amvnews.ru or AKROSS have more visitors than the org does, probably quite the reverse.

- I have won at cons before, more than once, and while those vids are among my more downloaded on the org they still don't come close to matching the views I've gotten on russian sites.

- Keep in mind that around the org I'm a known person. Because of that, I have noted that my releases get more attention, views, and comments in the announcement forum than unknown editors at least. On both amvnews and AKROSS where I am virtually unknown, I doubt more than 1 in 10 there have heard of me, much less actually know me.



So this isn't simply that contests draw more attention, that con submissions get more attention, that I'm a member of the community, or that more visitors = more views. It's simply that the two Russian sites have given my videos *FAR* more attention than the org ever has, despite most of these factors leaning towards giving the org an edge.

Now this post isn't about my videos (which is why I didn't name or link them), but rather what the community can do for editors. There's been talk before about what the org can do to accept noobs, how it's focus is on cataloging, how some feel it's too focused on editors rather than viewers, etc. However, it's pretty clear to me that if a noob asked how to get their videos seen, an honest answer would be to ignore the org entirely and become active in the Russian community. So I'm left wondering, what can the org do to promote videos to similar levels that the Russians do? Can it be done? Should it be done?
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby EvaFan » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:46 am

Well the majority of USA users frequent the tube before this site I can't say the same for the Russians but I would think they were more localized to amvnews before the tube.

I think some of it if not most has to do with our reputation. I remember reading somewhere about zeph and someone talking to a girl at a con about uploading their vid here and not wanting to cause she didn't want to be "bashed" etc etc... The problem is simply that. One person gets bashed, goes back to tube... Tells all their friends that the org is full of assholes when really it was and has for the most part always been just the few typical people. We have a clique here but those are everywhere and ours has been fizzling out of over the years if you ask me. Since our community is smaller then the tube's the assholes are more noticeable and its made easier for them to find you.

I don't think the org has ever done or is currently doing anything wrong. If anything it's certain people and attitudes that have lead to the bad rep. That's not something you can fix overnight + i'd wager majority of the admins are afraid of overusing their powers or just aren't really sure when a problem deems some course of action till "flaming" or "bashing" or "trolling" etc... is already out of hand.

Lately though it seems like the attitudes have gotten better too IMO but that doesn't mean its just going to make everything better right away.

Like I said though, I honestly don't think the org is doing anything wrong. Potentially its the whole catalog and upload process that is somewhat confusing and might be straying new people away, that's really the only thing the org might be possibly doing wrong IMO. We get people coming to us with FTP problems on a regular basis it seems. I don't know how amvnews works in this regard, never done anything there cept watch vids. However I think simplifying that process some how would help alot.
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby OropherZero » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:52 am

as I've been saying in the IRC channel, .org has a terrible interface which clunks information all over the place rather than AKROSS which is more concise and displays everything on one page. AKROSS also balances out the text info of the vids with images, making it a lot more presentable and MOST OF ALL there is a public commenting system. Hell I would rather leave a comment on your vid on the akross video page rather than on a forum which isn't directly linked to your video description page here. It's like saying anime blogs should have their pictures on one page and their public commenting section on another, just doesn't work y'know? :roll:
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby OropherZero » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:54 am

By clunking info everywhere I also mean that if someone doesn't 3 opinion your video on .org or have donator status to see the average star rating, then there is little indication on whether they should download it or not, whereas AKROSS can use the commenting system.
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby OropherZero » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:05 am

Oh and .org you have to log in to downlaod, and even then if not a donator have to click 'next' 'next' 'FILL OUT STAR RATING RAGEMODE'. Someone can just send me a link to an AKROSS vid and I can just right click and save as and its mine. You'll be amazed as to how many people I asked about .org who say that they are too lazy to create an account to download vids locally. Some even think the '2 weeks to confirm account' from over 5 years ago still apply =P Basically there are so many usability issues with .org that none of this is surprising really.

Also edit button on this forum section built on discussion = where? :/
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby kireblue » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:01 am

also, in order to find a video on the org, you have to search for it. So if a anime or song isn't popular, a video made with it may never see the light of day. And if a anime or song is too popular, a search for it will have too many results, and most of the videos will be ignored.

On the Akross website, you can simply view a list of every single video ever submitted and pick what looks interesting. Out of random coincidence, I clicked on your "Longed for him. Got him. Shit" video without even noticing that it was made by you.

And then, AMVnews does an even better job at featuring videos. Not only do you get a list of every video, but the list is actually on the homepage and even includes a screenshot from it.

So in short, the thing that the org is doing wrong is that the "AMV Spotlight" only features one video at random while AMVnews is currently featuring 144 pages worth of videos on their homepage (dating back to 2006). And the AMV spotlight for the org isn't even on the member's main page. It's only on the site's main page. I doubt that most members don't even bother going to the site's homepage.
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby Castor Troy » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:13 am

Looks like I'm learning Russian.
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby Nya-chan Production » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:42 am

More and more I realize that the redesign comes in the last moment possible >.>
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby dokidoki » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:04 am

kireblue wrote:And the AMV spotlight for the org isn't even on the member's main page. It's only on the site's main page. I doubt that most members don't even bother going to the site's homepage.

It wasn't made for members. It was made to give new people a sample of what's here.
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby kireblue » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:12 am

dokidoki wrote:
kireblue wrote:And the AMV spotlight for the org isn't even on the member's main page. It's only on the site's main page. I doubt that most members don't even bother going to the site's homepage.

It wasn't made for members. It was made to give new people a sample of what's here.

Yeah, but it just seems like things on the org's site are so compact that they don't really stand out much. For example, the "new vid on the block" drop down menu is at the bottom right of the members page, only list the name of the video, only list the newest 10, and is easy to ignore. On the other hand, the videos on AMVnews are in the dead center of the page, list all the video's information (including editor's comments, anime and song choice), has over a hundred pages of videos, and is impossible to miss.
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby CodeZTM » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:24 am

Ditching forced star ratings and making the entire center dedicated to AMV's [as kire suggested] would be really nice. I know star ratings are a big deal for force donations [to max it out to like 10-12 instead of just 4/5], but I'm pretty sure all of us would donate 12 bucks to get rid of that major annoyance that's so criminally unworkable, it's almost painful. [That'd be some AWESOME revenue]
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby kireblue » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:31 am

I think that it would be a nice idea to have a drop down menu in the space between the "notices" and "New / Updated Opinions" area of the members page.

here is a photo-shopped image that I made in order for you to see what it could look like.

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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby godix » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:17 pm

After thinking about it, a few suggestions. Keeping in mind, I and no one else should expect anything to be done for awhile since the coders are focused on the redesign which will take awhile.

I'll admit, I've kinda been wondering why people say we need a redesign. The org has worked for the last decade as it is after all. I understand the behind the scene tech reasons for it, but the point of those who want to change the layout and interface of the org kinda escaped me. Now that I think about it, I'm starting to get it. What others have said is right, it is hard to find videos on the org. Or, more accurately, there are so many ways of finding them and they're hidden in so many different spots, that it's effectively difficult to stumble into a specific video. Think about how often we see threads of 'Help me find vid XYZ' posted and someone links to the video after a single super search. That right there should be a lesson in that current methods are too difficult for the casual viewer who isn't already used to the site.

Like I said, part of the problem is that there are too many options. If you go to the 'search for AMV' section on the front page, there are six options. One of which is 'all search options' which leads to another 5 choices. And that's actually not even all of them, quick search is listed below the menu and there's no link to the announcement forum or the recommended AMV forum. Many of these choices are duplicate links to the same thing, so we don't really have that many different types of searches, we just link to them in multiple ways. Once the redesign gets are enough along that interface is considered, I'd suggest simplifying this. Simple search being right on the front page is good, the rest of the searches should be buried in a menu labeled 'other searches' that's right under simple search.

Kill the log in requirement for previews. I don't have to sign up to akross, amvnews, or the tube to view a link someone sends me. A new user who stumbled into the site, or was linked to is, is most likely just going to go away when they have to sign up, wait for the conformation email, and log in. There have been times that I've uploaded my vids to rapidshare, even though it was already on the org, because I was sending it to someone who wouldn't become a regular member of the org. Which is a sign there is an issue. A further sign, there have been times that I thought about linking someone to a video then I did not because it'd just be a hassle for them to sign up and so on. And they'd be pestering me about what to do the entire time. Fuck it, easier to just not mention the video. To view videos really should be as simple as 'click link to org, click play button'. Making previews available to people not signed it would solve that.

The vid on the FP that doki put to give new viewers a sample is a good idea. I think it might be overly limited though. As someone in the community, I quit paying attention to it very very quickly. Which is fine, it wasn't designed for me, but why not? Currently it has a very small number of videos it'll link to, all of which I've seen before. I'd suggest expanding the number of vids it shows (in other words, lower the star rating requirement to be put in rotation on it) and also putting it on the member main page. That way even experienced members can run into stuff that they haven't seen before. Perhaps this would be simpler to implement than devoting the center FP to vids like others mentioned, although their idea is good if someone has the time/interest to do it.


However, despite these suggestions, I think a large part is simply the community. My AKROSS video is up to 5 pages of comments on the video itself, and a couple pages of comments in the forum. My Amvnews vid has four pages of comments. Neither seem unusual compared to other vids on the site. Both amvnews and AKROSS users seem inclined to provide feedback and interaction with other editors about the videos themselves. Contrast that to the org. There are 30 announcements on the first page of the announcement forum. Currently, less than half have more than one page of replies. Only two have more than two pages. We joke that opinions are dead, and QCs are dying, but it isn't a joke. It's perfectly true. We, as a community, just don't focus on videos as much. In the end, this may the largest factor. Many org users, despite being on a site devoted to AMVs, don't really give a fuck about AMVs. So this isn't all 'the site needs redesigned' or 'the admins should implement this' and shit. A lot of this is as simple as if you see a good video, then tell someone else about it for a change, ok?
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby kireblue » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:58 pm

very well said. I agree with everything in your post completely.
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Re: What is the org doing wrong?

Postby dokidoki » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:00 pm

godix wrote:Kill the log in requirement for previews.

Then everyone will just watch videos logged out so they don't have to give them a star rating.
(For the moment I'm not saying whether mandatory stars are good or bad, just trying to illustrate a consequence of the decision)
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