Obligatory, annual, elitist AWA 2016 Pro AMV review!

[Xophilarus]

I feel like in general there just needs to be some big discussions about a lot of things after this year. Pro has the potential to be one of the most amazing, and great feeling contests out there. Some of my fondest memories involve Pro, but some of my worst do as well. It just is good at really highlighting both extremes, good and bad, which, we need to change so that it is much easier to just see the amazing things about pro. There just seems to be a lot of little issues in a lot of places that has exploded this year. I'm really hoping people can chill a bit, and then after the con, come together for some healthy discussions to figure out the best plan moving forward, and ways to make Pro better all around

[Rider4Z]

If people are looking for constructive feedback why are they looking in a thread titled

OBLIGATORY, ANNUAL, ELITIST REVIEW

This is not a serious place to acquire feedback. It says so right in the title and in the rules on the first post. RULE #4

Don't take the reviews seriously, the person who reviewed the video is probably trolling (like me!)

If you find our jibberjabber dumb that's fine, but at least we're public about it.

It may be an age thing, but we enjoy the callous banter trying to one up each other. If someone doesn't appreciate it that's perfectly fine, but our opinions are nothing to quit making AMVs over. They aren't serious and they aren't personal. Giving a thorough constructive review on ONE video, let alone 100, takes a lot of time and some of us just have too much shit going on outside of AMVs to put forth all that effort into something that may or may not even be read. However I guarantee you any one of us would be happy to give constructive non-sugar coated useful feedback if asked for.


If people want serious constructive feedback why hasn't anyone started a thread titled Serious and Constructive AWA 2016 Pro Feedback Anyone is perfectly capable of this and ignoring this thread entirely if they feel we play too rough.

[CrackTheSky]

I'm just going to give a response here because I have a feeling that irriadin's and Vivifx's posts were aimed at least partly in my direction.

Pro holds a special place in my heart. It was, I believe, the first contest I ever entered, and I love the idea behind it -- blind and peer-judged. To my knowledge it's the only large-scale contest of its kind, and I enjoy participating in it each year for that reason. From a personal standpoint, I tend to edit videos for myself and for my editor peers. I enjoy submitting my videos to the usual types of contests, but submitting to Pro is always something special because I know the people judging my work are the people who understand editing, and can hopefully see the work and thought I put into my videos. With other contests, one of the factors that goes into choosing the videos that will get shown is almost always, "Will the audience enjoy this?" I don't always edit videos that would work with a con audience, but might still be a quote-unquote good video. Pro gives me a chance to have my work recognized in a context that it might not be otherwise. That's not to belittle the judgment of a con audience or trivialize their feelings about the videos they like, but they don't tend to view and analyze AMVs the way an editor would. That's what drives me to enter Pro each year -- knowing that my work is being judged by people who love AMVs in the same kinds of ways I do.

All this is to say that I have always loved and supported this contest for as long as I've been active in the community, so I take it personally when I feel like the quality of videos being entered is less than it should be (which admittedly is a subjective thing). I was especially peeved this year because I saw threads on Facebook with people complaining about what they perceived to be a lack of quality in this year's contest, and in the same post or one immediately following would admit that they just threw something together so they could be in the contest. This is not okay in my book -- and so when I see a ton of videos that are clearly low-effort, it rubs me the wrong way. I don't know who made what so I can't claim that every "low-effort" video (from my perspective) was made "just to enter Pro", but it doesn't change the fact that there were plenty of obviously troll videos, and plenty more that were clearly not up to snuff with just basic editing techniques and common-sense things (such as using scenes with credits -- I'm sorry, but that would have been DQ'd from literally any other contest).

As such, I had a strongly negative reaction to plenty of videos in this contest -- very strong in some cases. Almost without exception these were the videos that I felt were either troll videos or were reducing the integrity of the contest by showing little to no creative effort or had enough glaring editing flaws that I couldn't in good conscience call them Pro-worthy.

In my feedback for those videos I didn't care for, I tried to provide succinct reasons that I didn't like the video. In the case of troll videos, the editor didn't care enough to really try to make a worthy entry, so I didn't bother to provide them with any kind of in-depth feedback. Those editors probably weren't looking for or expecting any anyway. Given that I don't have the time or patience to go through and do a breakdown of each and every video entered in the contest, most of my feedback is to-the-point, and in some cases, yeah, probably can come across as harsh. I don't want to discount the emotional element in my reaction to these videos because I think it's pertinent, especially in the context of this contest and the considerations mentioned above; other people may not care, so if I reacted harshly to your video, just ignore any emotional component you might sense (easier said than done, I know). There are a lot of reasons for that, none of which are personal to you specifically.

Finally, I attached numbers to my reviews because that's the way I review everything, AMV or otherwise. It helps me to keep tabs on which videos are worth remembering when it comes to voting. I didn't have to attach them in my public reviews but I did because, I don't know, some people might find that interesting. The number and my comments are closely related, so it's not like leaving it out would change anything. Plus it's what I've done the past three years at least, and I think the Pro contests I entered before then as well.

For funsies, I ran the average score for all the videos I reviewed -- came out to 4.83 (admittedly slightly lower than I thought). 4.83/10 is still right there in the middle of the bell curve. 5/10 is average. A 5/10 video is something that I feel is probably pretty fine, but didn't do anything for me personally. That's where the review portion comes in, because I do want to provide some feedback so you know why I rated you what I did.

Also, if after the contest is done, anyone wants to send me a PM asking me to be more specific in my thoughts for your video, I'd be happy to give thorough and detailed feedback, without the attached emotional baggage. I couldn't do that here due to severe lack of time, I'm sorry, but I wouldn't mind doing it in a 1-on-1 basis.

Ok that was way longer than I expected, sorry for the rant. In the end, it doesn't even matter though, right?

[irriadin]

If people are looking for constructive feedback why are they looking in a thread titled

OBLIGATORY, ANNUAL, ELITIST REVIEW

This is not a serious place to acquire feedback. It says so right in the title and in the rules on the first post. RULE #4

Don't take the reviews seriously, the person who reviewed the video is probably trolling (like me!)

If you find our jibberjabber dumb that's fine, but at least we're public about it.

It may be an age thing, but we enjoy the callous banter trying to one up each other. If someone doesn't appreciate it that's perfectly fine, but our opinions are nothing to quit making AMVs over. They aren't serious and they aren't personal. Giving a thorough constructive review on ONE video, let alone 100, takes a lot of time and some of us just have too much shit going on outside of AMVs to put forth all that effort into something that may or may not even be read. However I guarantee you any one of us would be happy to give constructive non-sugar coated useful feedback if asked for.


If people want serious constructive feedback why hasn't anyone started a thread titled Serious and Constructive AWA 2016 Pro Feedback Anyone is perfectly capable of this and ignoring this thread entirely if they feel we play too rough.

Constructive feedback should be a given in any form of serious criticism. Are all the reviews in here serious? Probably not, but some of the reviews veered towards overt or outright meanness. There's no equivocating it. And regardless of the intent of the first post and thread title, MANY people were very offended by the reviews posted in this thread. So much so that I heard about it, and I have been out of the AMV scene for nearly a year. I've spoken with more than a few editors who are despondent and considering not making videos for pro anymore. What should we tell them, not to take the reviews in here so seriously? "Sorry your feelings got crushed, don't take the reviews so seriously!"

You're speaking for yourself on this matter, and it's fine if you can "take the heat" as it were, but you can't govern the feelings of others and some of the opinions expressed in here ARE hurtful. "Playing rough" should not be an excuse for toxic behavior. The presentation here is too straight to be interpreted at anything other than face value, and I still question the value of shitting on others videos as a form of entertainment. Maybe if it were your OWN video that you destroyed, it would be clear that it was all in good fun.

This hobby is supposed to be fun and give others the tools to improve themselves, but this thread is more about seeing who is the king of shit-slinging mountain.

[Rider4Z]

Constructive feedback should be a given in any form of serious criticism. Are all the reviews in here serious? Probably not, but some of the reviews veered towards overt or outright meanness. There's no equivocating it. And regardless of the intent of the first post and thread title, MANY people were very offended by the reviews posted in this thread. So much so that I heard about it, and I have been out of the AMV scene for nearly a year. I've spoken with more than a few editors who are despondent and considering not making videos for pro anymore. What should we tell them, not to take the reviews in here so seriously? "Sorry your feelings got crushed, don't take the reviews so seriously!"

You're speaking for yourself on this matter, and it's fine if you can "take the heat" as it were, but you can't govern the feelings of others and some of the opinions expressed in here ARE hurtful. "Playing rough" should not be an excuse for toxic behavior. The presentation here is too straight to be interpreted at anything other than face value, and I still question the value of shitting on others videos as a form of entertainment. Maybe if it were your OWN video that you destroyed, it would be clear that it was all in good fun.

This hobby is supposed to be fun and give others the tools to improve themselves, but this thread is more about seeing who is the king of shit-slinging mountain.

I get what you're saying and I hear you, believe me. It is not any of our intentions to punch babies in the face (that's just an analogy).

What I'm trying to say is this thread is like an "R" rated movie.

We like it that way and don't want it to change. If you come in expecting Captain America you're gonna have your ass handed to you and then we hear about it later.

However I'm open to stronger disclaimers so people know to go see Captain America instead of Deadpool if they can't deal. And anyone who knows me knows I'm team Cap so it is not a judgment on you if you would rather keep it PG-13.

Seriously, make 2 separate threads. I'm game. I'll go see both~


EDIT: Well said, CracktheSky.

[irriadin]

I get what you're saying and I hear you, believe me. It is not any of our intentions to punch babies in the face (that's just an analogy).

What I'm trying to say is this thread is like an "R" rated movie.

We like it that way and don't want it to change. If you come in expecting Captain America you're gonna have your ass handed to you and then we hear about it later.

However I'm open to stronger disclaimers so people know to go see Captain America instead of Deadpool if they can't deal. And anyone who knows me knows I'm team Cap so it is not a judgment on you if you would rather keep it PG-13.

Seriously, make 2 separate threads. I'm game. I'll go see both~

Who are "we" exactly? If there are others who support this and this is what the community itself wants, then that's one thing, but you're the only person I see defending this style of review.

Making two separate threads is a possible solution, but I still feel that it's built on the wrong ideological base; that is, that "kiddies can't handle the criticism," etc. All that does is reinforce the cycle leading to more and more negativity getting flung around, because the folks who are new will aspire to leave the "kid's pool" and join the ranks of hardened veterans in the other thread. If you're going to make two threads, make it obvious that one is for normal reviews and that the other is for hyperbolic, over the top take-downs. That gets you what you want and makes the whole experience much more positive for everyone, because right now there's lots of half-hearted criticism and meanness masquerading as reviews.

[Xophilarus]

I think it is important to understand there are a large variety of editors that enter, and it is important that they don't get super discouraged from entering in future years. When someone just says "this videos is garbage because this sucked" and you leave it at that, the editor does not have much to go off of. If you don't like a video, it is fine to express it, but it is good to provide what they could have done to improve it and what they could do in the future. The effect it has is the difference between "Oh, I'm awful and why do I try"
and "Oh, I messed up here, but here's information I can use to improve off of"

And that's what I tried to do with mine. I'm generally a really critical person, and honestly, I'm still really bad at regarding how feelings can get hurt sometimes, and I'm sure I didn't do perfectly this year either. What I did try and do, however, was provide detailed explanations for my opinions so it wouldn't just feel like I'm trashing. I believe people just need to work harder at finding a balance. On one hand, yes, people should be able to take criticism, and if someone doesnt like a video, they should be free to express it. HOWEVER, there also needs to be valid criticism behind it and some kind of explanation or suggestions to help back it up if that makes sense. Also, all videos do certain things right so it is good to try and add at least some mixture in the criticism.

[Rider4Z]

Who are "we" exactly? If there are others who support this and this is what the community itself wants, then that's one thing, but you're the only person I see defending this style of review.

I only suggested it an hour ago...

Making two separate threads is a possible solution, but I still feel that it's built on the wrong ideological base; that is, that "kiddies can't handle the criticism," etc. All that does is reinforce the cycle leading to more and more negativity getting flung around, because the folks who are new will aspire to leave the "kid's pool" and join the ranks of hardened veterans in the other thread. If you're going to make two threads, make it obvious that one is for normal reviews and that the other is for hyperbolic, over the top take-downs. That gets you what you want and makes the whole experience much more positive for everyone, because right now there's lots of half-hearted criticism and meanness masquerading as reviews.

I thought that's what I said

What negativity is getting flung around? Do you mean outside of this thread?

[PieandBeer]

hey guys i'm here to take the middle ground and confuse the situation.

Crack, while I admire your passion, I think it is important to keep in mind that these are AMVs not some oscar nominated film or something that saves lives y'know? People make these for fun as a hobby. New people come into the hobby and the hobby as a whole evolves. When you give such stark reviews, it discourages people and it hinders the progress of the community. We all feed off each other and learn from each other so if a ton of people stop editing, we suddenly have less to go on. Your focused and honest critique certainly has it's place and I greatly admire it, but it's raw form might not be the most useful in this contest. You may say this contest is only for the Pros, but people cycle in and out and develop at different rates. Additionally, you wanna keep in mind what you think is the best is not what others may see. While I was also a bit disappointed with the troll vids, you can't force people into taking everything as seriously as you do.

I agree with Rider though, this is a place for critique. While we certainly want it to be constructive to help the community as a whole, I think we need to stress that feelings may get hurt. It's the nature of critique/reviews in creative endeavors. Like, people can get offended with the most constructive of reviews if they do not agree with it and if they were expecting crazy praise. I think we can all remember when we were new to editing and thought we were the shit Editors need to know that not everyone will like their videos. If they shield themselves from this and only surround themselves with people who praise them then their editing will stagnate or just never release videos ever for fear of criticism. I like the idea of two threads, mostly for my data plan though (all your gifs dangit >:C )

Like I legit do not understand why people are getting so upset about reviews. Like, don't be an jerk and get offended about someone giving you a less-than-positive review and don't be a jerk about someone making a video you don't like. Plain and simple. We wanna encourage newer editors to continue while still providing useful feedback.

[Shin-AMV]

My understanding of the reviews thread, despite the tongue-in-cheek title, was to be constructive and useful as a whole while being rather playful with the shade throwing banter and silliness in between the reviews. Yeah we all need to sack up a little cause we're going to hear stuff we don't like or some hard truths about editing choices, styles, or preferences.(Fuck Safe Spaces) However, I think there's a line where it stops being a harsh yet enlightening review and one that just kind of crushes people without any other takeaway.

I understand that the overall quality was lower this year then other years, but we aren't helping to improve next year if we're turning away people at the door cause we're ok with being dicks and trashing things but not offering any idea of where they could start to improve or things they could work on. Our hobby is largely dominated by socially anxious, low self-esteem, shy weeby weirdos and its not asking much just to show a little tact from everyone in general.

I'm not going to lie, I've been apart of the problem in the past as well, and still feel terrible about some of the things I've said about some people's videos without consideration that there's a nerdy human being, just like me, who may have put their heart into that video. I'm not suggesting we all form a circle, hold hands, and only sing praises but it goes a long way to phrase things in a way that suggests there is room to improve rather then the implication that they wasted their time.

I wasn't personally offended by any of the reviews for the record, but do see room for improvement in general.