Anime Expo 2012 AMV Contest Thread - WINNERS ANNOUNCED!!!

[Rider4Z]

I have to disagree about Avatar being allowed in, since it is not Japanese in origin and that would open the door to all other western animation. Once you allow one thing you have to allow all others to be fair.

exactly my point. i'd love to see other non-anime series included. it's not like the audience at AX would object to seeing Korra or MLP: FIM onscreen. if you'd like to argue that fact then i'd like to bring up that half of artists alley and cosplayers this year were either one or the other. perhaps a separate category for non-anime music videos.

nice try closing my can but you fell right into my trap!

[MisterFurious]

I think it would be better to try and adapt Otakon's rules into AX...

...like Otakon, if an AMV won first place somewhere else before a certain date, it gets DQ'd.

<Unpacks soapbox, stands on it>

A trolling rule like Otakon's hurts everyone. Besides the creator who is DQ'ed, it hurts the other creators, and it hurts the audience.

It may seem like it's fair to "give other creators a chance" against a video that has previously won elsewhere, but isn't the whole point of competition to see who is really "the best," not "the best of what hasn't won yet"? I mean, are we in elementary school, where everyone is supposed to get a shot at being on the dodge ball team?

Speaking for myself, winning at a contest where other entries were DQ'ed that were probably better than mine would be bittersweet at best. I want to have the opportunity to win fair and square against the best that can be seen in that contest. If any other creators are looking forward to an empty victory like that just for the sake of winning, then they're probably expecting a free ride from government programs, too (but I digress - see my rant about the entitlement mentality on my Facebook page).

I think we're all forgetting the Kevin Caldwell years. He won every award in every category, and enough director's chairs to open a bar, if he had managed to ship them all home. Did I bitch? Did I whine? Did I say, "that's not fair, give other creators a chance"? No. Instead, I stepped up my game and finally beat him in the Drama category in 2000. Competing with him made me a better editor.

How do these rules hurt the audience, you ask? It is hard for members of our community to believe, but there is still a large portion of convention attendees that don't bother with going to the full contest on night one, because they only care about the winners. Two years ago, when the awards ceremony was turned into a re-screen, there was a lot of complaining on other non-AMV message boards about how AX "forced" attendees to watch all the nominees because, "I only wanted to see the winners." At Otakon, DQ'ed videos are screened in blocks with all the other entries that didn't make the finals. Needless to say, these are far less attended than the finalist screening, so not only does the creator "lose" because of winning, but the audience that goes to the contest to see the best videos at the con actually are not, because the ones that won previously are not allowed in.

Even Otakon's trolling rule is imperfect at best, because the cut-off date is the entry deadline. This leaves the field wide open to videos that have won at cons that take place after their deadline (including AX), meaning that Otakon is "the best of what hasn't won anything before <insert entry deadline here>." I realize that the purpose of this is so that creators have a chance to submit something else if their video is DQ'ed, but IMHO, if there is to be a real trolling rule, creators have to accept the possibility that if their video wins an award at some other, smaller convention, they may get left out of AX without a chance to re-submit. That will give them an incentive to submit to AX first, which is what I think is the real objective here.

Further, every convention is different. Every audience is different. Videos that win at one convention may not necessarily win at AX, either because the audience doesn't quite get it, there are more videos in that category, or (shock) someone happens to make a better video. In 2004 my video, "That'll Do," won Drama at FanimeCon, but didn't make the finals at AX. On the other hand, "Signal to Noise" didn't make the finals at FanimeCon in 2006, but ended up winning Best in Show at AX. Trolling rules are completely unnecessary. The contests sort themselves out.

DQ'ing videos for winning is the same as telling Steven Spielberg, "I'm sorry, Mr. Spielberg, but 'Schindler's List' has won too many awards already, so I'm afraid it's not eligible for the Academy Awards." If AX is to have a reputation as a quality AMV contest, then it needs to operate at a higher level than other conventions. That means that if a video wins elsewhere, let it try its hand at AX and let the chips fall where they may.

I would be more agreeable to AX having an exclusivity rule like Japan Expo instead of an anti-trolling rule.

<Steps off soapbox, calmly walks away>

[Seijin_Dinger]

I have to disagree about Avatar being allowed in, since it is not Japanese in origin and that would open the door to all other western animation. Once you allow one thing you have to allow all others to be fair.

exactly my point. i'd love to see other non-anime series included. it's not like the audience at AX would object to seeing Korra or MLP: FIM onscreen. if you'd like to argue that fact then i'd like to bring up that half of artists alley and cosplayers this year were either one or the other. perhaps a separate category for non-anime music videos.

nice try closing my can but you fell right into my trap!

I will counter that while as a whole that an anime convention should be limited to anime, those selling merchandise in both the exhibits hall, as well as artist alley pay for the opportunity to have that space thus they should be free to sell whatever merchandise they wish as long as it is in accordance with local laws.

Cosplay is a harder area to police due to the amount of people who do cosplay and enforcing any sort of anime only rule would not only be impossible, but would also be a bad PR move. Also again attendees pay to attend the convention.

The more controllable situations of he contests can easily enforce rules that limit content to Japanese origin only, and by submitting to those contests you also agree to abide by those rules. And while attendees pay to attend the convention to enter cosplay contests, most AMV contests do not require convention attendance or purchase of tickets/memberships (depending on their structure) to compete

[XStylus]

I have to disagree about Avatar being allowed in, since it is not Japanese in origin and that would open the door to all other western animation. Once you allow one thing you have to allow all others to be fair.

exactly my point. i'd love to see other non-anime series included.

Hate to tell you, but for 2013 I'm very likely going the opposite direction. Video game fans probably won't be too happy with me, for starters.

[Rider4Z]

It may seem like it's fair to "give other creators a chance" against a video that has previously won elsewhere, but isn't the whole point of competition to see who is really "the best," not "the best of what hasn't won yet"? I mean, are we in elementary school, where everyone is supposed to get a shot at being on the dodge ball team?

i agree with brad. if AX is to have a FRESH rule, then it should be like Akross (and i guess Japan Expo) where it has to premiere AT Anime Expo.

[XStylus]

<Steps off soapbox, calmly walks away>

I bow before your soapbox, sir.

[Scintilla]

Even Otakon's trolling rule is imperfect at best, because the cut-off date is the entry deadline. This leaves the field wide open to videos that have won at cons that take place after their deadline (including AX), meaning that Otakon is "the best of what hasn't won anything before <insert entry deadline here>." I realize that the purpose of this is so that creators have a chance to submit something else if their video is DQ'ed, but IMHO, if there is to be a real trolling rule, creators have to accept the possibility that if their video wins an award at some other, smaller convention, they may get left out of AX without a chance to re-submit. That will give them an incentive to submit to AX first, which is what I think is the real objective here.

Okay, but assuming you go with a rule like that, how much later could the cutoff date plausibly be? Finalists do have to be decided well in advance in order to have time to clear the legal department and then get the ballots printed, etc.

[Castor Troy]

a) An entry whereby AX would be the fourth (or more) live event that the entry would be exhibited at.
b) Any entry that is publicly viewable online. Any public download links must be pulled and remain offline until after the competition.
c) Any entry that was shown at any live event prior to July 1st, 2012.

I think the ONLY requirement of the freshness rule should be a 12-18 month limit on videos.

[Cyrix]

DQ'ing videos for winning is the same as telling Steven Spielberg, "I'm sorry, Mr. Spielberg, but 'Schindler's List' has won too many awards already, so I'm afraid it's not eligible for the Academy Awards."

It's hardly fair to compare an industry awards show judged by a designated "professional honorary organization" with a contest at a convention where entries are screened live and the general public audience votes. I can't think of a better analogy off the top of my head; usually live contests involve some kind of live performance, so maybe a figure skater could use the same routine at several events, but he or she has to do everything in the routine each time, so the performance will vary from one show to the next. In contrast, a music video is a static entity once it's completed, and (unless the editor tweaks it between cons I suppose) it won't be better or worse from one show to the next.

On the other hand, "Signal to Noise" didn't make the finals at FanimeCon in 2006, but ended up winning Best in Show at AX. Trolling rules are completely unnecessary. The contests sort themselves out.

Signal was also 29 seconds over the maximum video length for AX, wasn't it?

the audience that goes to the contest to see the best videos at the con actually are not, because the ones that won previously are not allowed in.

Why would we want to cater to audience members who don't care about AMVs or the contest enough to watch more than five videos? One could also argue if they went to previous conventions they wouldn't want to see a winning video they'd seen before if they only have the attention span for a handful of AMVs.

I was going to say maybe a good compromise is put videos that have won previous cons in a separate category still eligible for best in show, thus meaning the "best of the best" would still be competing, but that would have to either be the replacement for AMTV in lieu of Upbeat, or have limited slots and be cutting into the other categories, both scenarios which would probably leave a lot of people angry. :-/

[Kazemon15]

It may seem like it's fair to "give other creators a chance" against a video that has previously won elsewhere, but isn't the whole point of competition to see who is really "the best," not "the best of what hasn't won yet"? I mean, are we in elementary school, where everyone is supposed to get a shot at being on the dodge ball team?

But how many wins is enough to justify newer videos getting knocked out for 4 year old winning videos?

If I remember correctly, one year, there was this one Fate Stay Night AMV that made it into the action category and it was a winner as it was a winner in other cons 4 years prior. Doesn't that hurt the competition a little bit as well? Not only does it hurt the competition, but it also tells the creator of the newer AMVs that "AX only wants winning videos, why bother sending at all?"

Also, to add to this, the "best" of the "best" is very opinionated. I was told that some of my AMVs were the best they have seen...while others said that they were crap and unwatchable.

So the whole "the best of what hasn't won yet" seems kind of an insult. Are you saying that if a video hasn't won something, it doesn't even deserve to be in a "best" overall title, regardless if it's in a category of winners or against videos that haven't won yet?

Speaking for myself, winning at a contest where other entries were DQ'ed that were probably better than mine would be bittersweet at best. I want to have the opportunity to win fair and square against the best that can be seen in that contest. If any other creators are looking forward to an empty victory like that just for the sake of winning, then they're probably expecting a free ride from government programs, too (but I digress - see my rant about the entitlement mentality on my Facebook page).

This is also kinda subjective... Every rule has its flaws. Sure, it may be the "best", but it's only a matter of opinion of the judges. Everyone's video is under the opinion of what the judges think are the "best." If one truly wants to be "fair and square", why not just let the audience pick from the entire mass of entries as the best ones? But that's impossible, isn't it? It'll tire the audience out. No matter what, nothing can really be "fair and square."

Allowing winning video also hurts the competition and the audience, as I'll get to that in a minute.

How do these rules hurt the audience, you ask? It is hard for members of our community to believe, but there is still a large portion of convention attendees that don't bother with going to the full contest on night one, because they only care about the winners. Two years ago, when the awards ceremony was turned into a re-screen, there was a lot of complaining on other non-AMV message boards about how AX "forced" attendees to watch all the nominees because, "I only wanted to see the winners." At Otakon, DQ'ed videos are screened in blocks with all the other entries that didn't make the finals. Needless to say, these are far less attended than the finalist screening, so not only does the creator "lose" because of winning, but the audience that goes to the contest to see the best videos at the con actually are not, because the ones that won previously are not allowed in.

I don't get how one can lose because of winning. They've already won and more than likely, their videos were shown time and time again at other conventions, even possibly conventions in the same state where people have already seen it more than once already. Truth be told, I think the ones who don't get in at all due to those winning AMVs pushing them back are the ones that lose, not the other way around.

I can't tell you how many times (no offense to Shin, as I do love this AMV) I've seen Safety Dance. I can only stand seeing that AMV so many times before getting bored of it. And that goes for the audience as well.

The one year I went to Anime LA, Fanime and AX in the same year...I saw the same AMV get in at all three times. By the second time, I was bored out of my mind of it. More than likely, if I can go to these same cons, so can audience. And if they go to one AMV contest, what makes you think they do not go to others? And I also know there are fanatic con-goers who go to other cons as well, in different states. How do you think they feel to pay a plane ticket to see the same lineup again and again in not one state, but several?

This year at AX, more than half the audience seats in the first AMV showing were empty. My guess is that the audience got bored with the selected AMVs before they were even shown, and that's sad.

Even Otakon's trolling rule is imperfect at best, because the cut-off date is the entry deadline. This leaves the field wide open to videos that have won at cons that take place after their deadline (including AX), meaning that Otakon is "the best of what hasn't won anything before <insert entry deadline here>." I realize that the purpose of this is so that creators have a chance to submit something else if their video is DQ'ed, but IMHO, if there is to be a real trolling rule, creators have to accept the possibility that if their video wins an award at some other, smaller convention, they may get left out of AX without a chance to re-submit. That will give them an incentive to submit to AX first, which is what I think is the real objective here.

The creator knows what kind of cons they're submitting to. If they want their videos to be at a big-name convention and contest, they can hold off on submitting to smaller conventions, or send their older winning videos to those conventions instead. After all, this is what Akross does and I don't see anyone having a problem with it.