What rights does the viewer have?

[derek_t]

I was told that because I watched an anime I didn't have the right to reject the message. Question: Why not?

If I felt Trigun was incomplete, why can't I say "I felt it was incomplete". Why must I agree that where Trigun ended must be the true ending

If I feel Eva had Shinji and company goes through incredible and unbelieveable hoops. Why must I act like the character are believable? Why can't I say the writer(s) used a very unfair method to get the message across?

If I feel a writer is cheating, either by ignoring obvious questions, by making character commits actions that seem unture, etc. Why can't I say I feel like this. Truly if I watch an anime, did I actually lose a right to complain about what I felt was wrong with the story?

To the person who post I hijacked. I'm sorry I do feel bad about that, I just wanted to write my feeling on the different categories of animes that exist?

[Vegita1123]

I dont know why you cant have comments on things. I say exactly how I feel about shows. I to thought that Trigun was incomplete. They could have expanded on the series, and Eva could have done more. The way they ended with Shinji becoming god, and thats it. They could have done more. Oh well, you should say whatever you want about a series, as long as you have a way to back it up.

[paizuri]

Well I think it's your right to be able to express your opinion. But be prepared for there to be some disagreements upon these issues. However, if you get other people who are trying to shove THEIR opinions down your unwilling throat, you certainly don't have to swallow them. Hell, they could even be wrong. It helps if you try to rationalize your standpoint, but if you do so and these people still refuse to respect your opinion, then just stop responding to them, because they're probably not paying attention to what you're saying to begin with.

[Lyrs]

The way they ended with Shinji becoming god, and thats it.

heh... 8)

[UncleMilo]

I was told that because I watched an anime I didn't have the right to reject the message. Question: Why not?

If I felt Trigun was incomplete, why can't I say "I felt it was incomplete". Why must I agree that where Trigun ended must be the true ending

If I feel Eva had Shinji and company goes through incredible and unbelieveable hoops. Why must I act like the character are believable? Why can't I say the writer(s) used a very unfair method to get the message across?

If I feel a writer is cheating, either by ignoring obvious questions, by making character commits actions that seem unture, etc. Why can't I say I feel like this. Truly if I watch an anime, did I actually lose a right to complain about what I felt was wrong with the story?

To the person who post I hijacked. I'm sorry I do feel bad about that, I just wanted to write my feeling on the different categories of animes that exist?

OK... you have a right to say you didn't like an ending... you have a right to not like a show because of the way the story panned out...

but to claim that the writer didn't do enough often points back to you missing what the writer was trying to get across.

The Trigun story is VERY COMPLETE.
As an opinion, you may like or dilike the story... or the message the author is giving. However, to say the story is incomplete is not a matter of opinion. The characters are defined, the conflict is well explained (and very well) and the final conflict hits the crux of the argument on the head. The story is complete.

The best writing is where you "show" rather than "tell". People who overlook subtle details will miss a lot in this kind of storytelling. For example - the relationship between Milly and Wolfwood is so well handled. It is almost NEVER in the foreground... and yet, there is so much information in small comments, suggested scenes, and other clever hints in the writing, that you realize without any warning, that a very wonderful and yet tragic love story has gone on right under your nose.


NEON GENESIS EVANGELION is also a copmplete series. The TV show alone has all the elements to tell a complete story.

Again... it is your opinion to like or dislike the story. It is your opinion to like or dislike the messages in the story, but to blame the writers for things you don't understand is going beyond opinion.

There is enough information contained in the story to explain why everyone acts the way they do. There is enough information to explain what is going on in the story. Evangelion is trying to tackle some very hard philisophical questions. It is trying to ask the complicated questions of life! I'm sure when you were 14 you knew everything and you never performed actions that were contradictory... I'm sure you never yelled at your friends or were angry at your parents... but some people actually have many contradictions in their lives. They sometimes behave in ways that even they don't understand. I know that I am often plagued by contradictions of behaviour in my own life.

The characters in EVA often face these same contradictions. Shinji is attracted to and repulsed by Asuka... Shinji is afraid of people and distrusts them, but is desperate for friends and companions... Shinji hates piloting the EVA and yetr finds his sense of worth in piloting the EVA.


Now obviously, if you're a writer, you're going to make your characters do things. I mean... why not just complain about The Lord of the Rings... you could argue that a small halfling who comes from a town of farmers who has never really held a sword in his life would have no way of surviving all the obstacles that Frodo had to endure... that the story is completely unrealistic because Frodo should have been dead right on the 1st confrontation with the Ring Wraiths and that the author is just cheating.


You seem to have this thinking: You see something and you don't like how it plays out. You complain why you don't like how it plays out. Someone like me comes along and explains in greater detail why the story is the way it is (using examples contained in the show to back up my points) and indicate why the story is (based on my arguments) a complete story and arguing why I find your view to be a little lacking. You argue that because I have painted this picture I am telling you that you have NO RIGHT to think the way you do. I am not telling you that you CAN'T think the way you do, but I am challenging your views.

If you want to continue to think the way you do about a show, then you can... but it is my belief that your view is not well founded... that there is a lot you're ignoring or unwilling to consider... and that your opinions (which you have a right to) are based on incomplete information.

I mean... you could say that it is your opinion that Trigun is really an analogy for the US Western expansion... and you'd be entitled to that opinion, but without any evidence, without any strong arguments, I would say that your opinion is wrong.

(Far too many people hide behind the word opinion.)

Can you imagine this situation: A writer creates a fantasy series with a lot of swords and sorcery, but in the end, he is trying to tell a stroy that tells the viewer about the importance of challenging your own governement... and the need of a governement to be accountable to the people... that apathy toward one's own political system could create another horror equal to Hitler's Reich.

Then imagine a number of fans telling the writer that he's wrong... that this is NOT WHAT HIS SHOW WAS ABOUT and not even explaining why he's wrong... just telling the writer he is wrong about what his show is about and that because they are entitled to their opinions he is not even allowed to counter their views.

Anyway...

that's my thoughts on this matter.

-Uncle Milo

[derek_t]

This is to answer a question asked in another post.

The reason why I reject it Milo is because it is false.

To say "If Vash choose to teach Knives, therefore Knives will without one doubt will learn the true way" is not true. No more than it would be true to say "All I have to do is tell these racist people they are wrong and they will all agree with me" As I said before my problem isn't the choice Vash makes, my problem is they show it as if "Vash choose to teach Knives, and they all live happily ever after". The show should continue just to see Knives reaction to waking up and finding Vash willing to teach him.

To be fair to Trigun, there have been rumors that the people who made the anime actually did want to continue with this, but that it was the creator of the Trigun comic that actually is holding things up because he was unhappy with the anime (can anyone confirm this and say why the creator is unhappy or can anyone say that this is truly just an untrue rumor?)

Oh by the way, on reflection I guess I did miss the point. I thought the point was Vash was trying to live his life without having to accept the fact that he should be somewhat responcible for his brother. I thought the end was Vash is willing to taked some responcibility for his brother. Actually to say there is a point to Trigun is unfair, there are many points the writer seems to go for (some do work, others fall flat almost instantly).
I doubt the writer had any one point in mind.

[Anlushac11]

8)

Well said. I think more people would feel Trigun had a wee bit more of closure if AS would only show ALL the closing credits, like where Vash meets back up with you know who.

I liked EVA and felt that many of the characters were portrayed as being human...with faults and all.

[derek_t]

I'm worry my last post doesn't make something clear.

Saying "Vash will try" isn't enough, ok. And yes that makes the story incomplete. For you its complete fine, for me its incomplete.

And there is a difference between a character doing something surprising and a character going against everything he did before. I felt Shinji going back was completly unbelieveable. You believe it fine I don't.

[UncleMilo]

8)

Well said. I think more people would feel Trigun had a wee bit more of closure if AS would only show ALL the closing credits, like where Vash meets back up with you know who.

I liked EVA and felt that many of the characters were portrayed as being human...with faults and all.

I never watched Trigun on Adult Swim, but I've heard how they chop off important information if that information happens to be in the credits (like Trigun and Kikaider)

I am glad you posted that, because I think the Vash/Meryl relationship was VERY well handled. It wasn't a major plot issue... and yet, all the information is there about that developing relationship... and again, I am so impressed on how it was handled.

-Uncle Milo

[samurairyu]

I was told that because I watched an anime I didn't have the right to reject the message. Question: Why not?

If I felt Trigun was incomplete, why can't I say "I felt it was incomplete". Why must I agree that where Trigun ended must be the true ending

If I feel Eva had Shinji and company goes through incredible and unbelieveable hoops. Why must I act like the character are believable? Why can't I say the writer(s) used a very unfair method to get the message across?

If I feel a writer is cheating, either by ignoring obvious questions, by making character commits actions that seem unture, etc. Why can't I say I feel like this. Truly if I watch an anime, did I actually lose a right to complain about what I felt was wrong with the story?

To the person who post I hijacked. I'm sorry I do feel bad about that, I just wanted to write my feeling on the different categories of animes that exist?

OK... you have a right to say you didn't like an ending... you have a right to not like a show because of the way the story panned out...

but to claim that the writer didn't do enough often points back to you missing what the writer was trying to get across.

The Trigun story is VERY COMPLETE.
As an opinion, you may like or dilike the story... or the message the author is giving. However, to say the story is incomplete is not a matter of opinion. The characters are defined, the conflict is well explained (and very well) and the final conflict hits the crux of the argument on the head. The story is complete.

The best writing is where you "show" rather than "tell". People who overlook subtle details will miss a lot in this kind of storytelling. For example - the relationship between Milly and Wolfwood is so well handled. It is almost NEVER in the foreground... and yet, there is so much information in small comments, suggested scenes, and other clever hints in the writing, that you realize without any warning, that a very wonderful and yet tragic love story has gone on right under your nose.


NEON GENESIS EVANGELION is also a copmplete series. The TV show alone has all the elements to tell a complete story.

Again... it is your opinion to like or dislike the story. It is your opinion to like or dislike the messages in the story, but to blame the writers for things you don't understand is going beyond opinion.

There is enough information contained in the story to explain why everyone acts the way they do. There is enough information to explain what is going on in the story. Evangelion is trying to tackle some very hard philisophical questions. It is trying to ask the complicated questions of life! I'm sure when you were 14 you knew everything and you never performed actions that were contradictory... I'm sure you never yelled at your friends or were angry at your parents... but some people actually have many contradictions in their lives. They sometimes behave in ways that even they don't understand. I know that I am often plagued by contradictions of behaviour in my own life.

The characters in EVA often face these same contradictions. Shinji is attracted to and repulsed by Asuka... Shinji is afraid of people and distrusts them, but is desperate for friends and companions... Shinji hates piloting the EVA and yetr finds his sense of worth in piloting the EVA.


Now obviously, if you're a writer, you're going to make your characters do things. I mean... why not just complain about The Lord of the Rings... you could argue that a small halfling who comes from a town of farmers who has never really held a sword in his life would have no way of surviving all the obstacles that Frodo had to endure... that the story is completely unrealistic because Frodo should have been dead right on the 1st confrontation with the Ring Wraiths and that the author is just cheating.


You seem to have this thinking: You see something and you don't like how it plays out. You complain why you don't like how it plays out. Someone like me comes along and explains in greater detail why the story is the way it is (using examples contained in the show to back up my points) and indicate why the story is (based on my arguments) a complete story and arguing why I find your view to be a little lacking. You argue that because I have painted this picture I am telling you that you have NO RIGHT to think the way you do. I am not telling you that you CAN'T think the way you do, but I am challenging your views.

If you want to continue to think the way you do about a show, then you can... but it is my belief that your view is not well founded... that there is a lot you're ignoring or unwilling to consider... and that your opinions (which you have a right to) are based on incomplete information.

I mean... you could say that it is your opinion that Trigun is really an analogy for the US Western expansion... and you'd be entitled to that opinion, but without any evidence, without any strong arguments, I would say that your opinion is wrong.

(Far too many people hide behind the word opinion.)

Can you imagine this situation: A writer creates a fantasy series with a lot of swords and sorcery, but in the end, he is trying to tell a stroy that tells the viewer about the importance of challenging your own governement... and the need of a governement to be accountable to the people... that apathy toward one's own political system could create another horror equal to Hitler's Reich.

Then imagine a number of fans telling the writer that he's wrong... that this is NOT WHAT HIS SHOW WAS ABOUT and not even explaining why he's wrong... just telling the writer he is wrong about what his show is about and that because they are entitled to their opinions he is not even allowed to counter their views.

Anyway...

that's my thoughts on this matter.

-Uncle Milo

O dear God...

and I thought I was windy

Though I must say that challeging someone's views can be quite confrontational to them. I like to pick apart every anime I find that is
-serious-.

Tenchi, for example, I love and would never look for errors.

On the other hand, in EVA I say that Shinji kept goin nowhere and I want to physically abuse him. I will say that the series could have ended around episode 22 and if anyone dissagrees, so be it.

This is not to say that people don't have the right to try to change my mind(please do ), but I hav ethe right to be stubborn.

The only thing that ticks me off is people saying "watch it again a few times."

I watched it, I absorbed it, I couldn't stand to watch Shinji's flash-shows about self-image more than once.

Now lets hear die-hard EVA fans quote me and pick apart my oppinions.