Where does the church get $55mil?

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nrjize
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Post by nrjize » Mon Aug 11, 2003 5:03 am

gadoo wrote: And if you're so mad at the tax dollars being wasted, why don't you cheat the government too. Since with your logic, it's every man for himself, you shouldn't have any concience stopping you on this quest.
oooohh disss

Well some people have families to think about, and lots of people in manufacturing (my mom included) have lost their jobs and had to get crappy jobs that dont cover all of the expenses, I fully support them getting money from the goverment if it means feeding their kids and having a place to live.

As far as feeding other countries goes... how about we slaughter their sacred cows and force it down their throats :twisted:
=-o

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Post by Cardinal.jpg » Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:57 am

I´m sure she´ll correct me if I´m wrong but I think Gadoo supports welfare and people recieving it legitimately.
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jonmartensen
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Post by jonmartensen » Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:25 am

kthulhu wrote:About welfare:

1. Welfare by itself isn't enough to live on. Often, many people require housing, food stamps, and other assistance.

2. Additionally, to get and keep welfare or other assistance, it can be a full time job in itself.

3. Most people on assistance aren't highly skilled, so the only work they can find is low, minimum wage service work - which doesn't pay much more (less even) than government programs, and introduces new problems (transportation, childcare, things of that nature).

4. In the current downturn, even service jobs are getting harder to find.
THIS IS NOT A COMMUNMIST STATE.
5. If you're in favor of dismantling welfare, let's dismantle public schools, roads, hospitals, police, the military, and other government programs.
Two totally different areas, and you know it, so don't commit that fallacy.
6. The key to getting out of poverty and reducing welfare - less emphasis on straight handouts, and more emphasis on education, civic harmony, national economic development ...
Damn straight! If there is to be any kind of welfare, it should at least be the lesser of two evils.
nrjize wrote:As far as feeding other countries goes... how about we slaughter their sacred cows and force it down their throats :twisted:
:lol: So wrong, but so funny.
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kthulhu
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Post by kthulhu » Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:35 pm

jonmartensen wrote:THIS IS NOT A COMMUNMIST STATE.
Ah, but it's not a pure, capitalist one, either :P . And technically, social welfare is a socialist thing. There is a difference (although I'm not much in favor of either).
jonmartensen wrote:
kthulhu wrote:5. If you're in favor of dismantling welfare, let's dismantle public schools, roads, hospitals, police, the military, and other government programs.
Two totally different areas, and you know it, so don't commit that fallacy.
I fail to see how this is different. Why should poor people, who pay few, if any taxes, receive free education? The free use of the roads? Free medical care? More police coverage? They can go to private schools on their own dime. They can pay tolls. They can pay for their own insurance. The police can assess fees for their services.
jonmartensen wrote:
kthulhu wrote:6. The key to getting out of poverty and reducing welfare - less emphasis on straight handouts, and more emphasis on education, civic harmony, national economic development ...
Damn straight! If there is to be any kind of welfare, it should at least be the lesser of two evils.
I fail to see how that's a "lesser of two evils" situation. We either:

A. Continue the current status quo (that won't easily die), and its overall ineffectual results. Or...

B. Spend the money better and put people onto a good path OFF the system.

The current welfare system is broken - in some parts, it provides little impetus to get off. In others, people fall through the cracks. And most of the time, it's not a very good life (not that it necessarily should be, but may as well call a spade a spade). An overhaul (complete with reducing administrative costs) with an emphasis on getting people off permanently would be a fine thing.

On the flipside, we give out just as much, if not more, in corporate perks and welfare, and we spend a hell of a lot more on the military than on welfare. The whole airline bailout? Our current Iraq situation, anybody?

So no, I'm not totally pro-welfare (growing up on it, especially, has soured me to the whole thing). But I'm not in favor of cutting it just to "save money", that will be siphoned off into a different, "better" sinkhole.
I'm out...

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Toecutter
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Post by Toecutter » Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:28 pm

5. If you're in favor of dismantling welfare, let's dismantle public schools, roads, hospitals, police, the military, and other government programs.
Public schools are an insult. Do you realize in Washington County, Oregon, the amount of tax dollars spent on the public school system is equivalent to spending $10,000 per student per year? California, in all of it's debt-ridden problems, spends far less than that, and has an equivalent educational system. A typical in-state college only runs $3,000-$4,000 for JUST BOOKS, TUITION, AND OTHER MINOR FEES (NOT INCLUDING LIVING ON CAMPUS, FOOD, ETC, BUT JUST THE BARE MINIMUM TO TAKE THE CLASSES).

So, why the hell does it take three times the amount of cash to send a student to college to run some delinquent through high school? Also, why do the elderly, recently-married couples, and other individuals without children have to pay the taxes for public education? They're getting anything out of it, so why should their money go to supporting some other idiot's kids?

The state government is only around to enforce the law, ensure the public safety, and stay the hell out of everyone's life (so long as they do physically endanger the lives of others). That cuts government spending down to police, firefighters, a 911 system, and state-based national guard.

Administration and regulation of telecommunications, airspace, roadways, and waterways can be easily patroled by the police and national guard alone (that's what they're here for). The government doesn't need $400 chairs, fancy oak desks, giant "public" buildings, which are conveniently secured from full public access by the Fuzz, and paychecks ranging from $100,000 to $300,000 a year.

Back during the first few decades of the Revolutionary War, service in congress, the senate, and other government branches were considered voluntary, with no source of income. Congressmen and Senators had jobs outside of the government, in which they made their living.

You want to solve all of our problems? Cut social programs, and make the citizenry do their own volunteering, like local neighborhood watch programs, minus the Man. Also, cut the crap with "Community Service". I still don't believe this bullshit, but it's a requirement now to do 10+ hours of community service to graduate from high school. What the fuck? You don't learn anything from community service, except how stupid the rest of humanity really is, and how the intelligent ones are left to pull their weight for the rest of our natural lives.

You want real community service? Imprison, or terminate all the homeless bums who refuse to get a job. Kick the illegal immigrants out of here, so they have no excuse for not getting a 12-hour berry-picking job that pays 5¢ an hour.
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jonmartensen
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Post by jonmartensen » Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:34 pm

kthulhu wrote:
jonmartensen wrote:
kthulhu wrote:5. If you're in favor of dismantling welfare, let's dismantle public schools, roads, hospitals, police, the military, and other government programs.
Two totally different areas, and you know it, so don't commit that fallacy.
I fail to see how this is different. Why should poor people, who pay few, if any taxes, receive free education? The free use of the roads? Free medical care? More police coverage? They can go to private schools on their own dime. They can pay tolls. They can pay for their own insurance. The police can assess fees for their services.
Welfare is payment to a person for being alive and not being able to earn a living. There are extreme cases in which, yes, aid from the government is not a bad idea. But trying to have everyone who earns money pay for everyone who doesn't :? Call it what you want (Communistic, Socialistic, Idealistic, Social reform, Actions for the Greater Good of Mankind) I can't help but think it's a very bad idea.

Public schools, roads, hospitals, the police, the military and some of the other government programs are things that are of general benefeit to the community. And though one or two things may not be of direct benefeit to you (any general individual), others who it does help are helping to pay for some of the things that do help you. Plus you recieve secondary benefeits from many things. Schools are for education, which helps to reduce crime and increase prosperity. The only reason you don't need the police where you are, would mainly be because they are currently doing their job. The millitary is meant for the protection against foriegn agressors.

And of course, paying for the millitary segway's nicely into...

The only reason money is used from taxes broadly rather than on an individual usage basis is the logistics. The purpose of the government is as an intermediary to help in the proper appropriation of funds (I'm not saying that it is currently being done that way, or rather, that it is being done well.)

Sure we could rant on and on together about the overbloattedness and ineffectivness of the way things are being run, the corporate running over into the federal, and federal ineficiency, but my main point is that wellfare on a broad scale is more of a detriment/drain to the public than it is a benefeit(and in cases, not even a benefeit to those who recieve it)


As far as the 2 evils go
The system is a bad thing and you either continue with the system or ween people off of it. Unfortunatly that means you have to continue using the system either way, it's just that with the second option, you eventually stop using the system.

Thusly it is not as bad as continuing the way things are, but it isn't the full removal of wellfare for a long time.
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Post by kthulhu » Mon Aug 11, 2003 8:36 pm

I got no beef with you, jon. We can agree to kind of agree and disagree at the same time, since you're a rational, level-headed chap.

It was Toecutter and his annoying rightist screed that ticked me off. For the majority of welfare recipients, it's not some fat of the land joyride.
I'm out...

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Post by WholeLottaChoas » Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:34 pm

....so anyone figured how a church got 55million bucks yet

me IMO am happy ONLY because I am a Christian BUT does a church really need 55mil. The 500 or so members at my church are happy and we worship in a hand made building so is there really a point to it? C'mon that alot of money that could of gone to a colledge or a better yet help the already sucking economy.

I need 55mil :roll:
Why do we try to keep our sanity when losing it is so much more fun?

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Post by klinky » Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:15 pm

Bah! :O

Can't you all see we're all just cows to the government. Wait WAIT! :O. Sheeps. Sheeps. That's what most people act like anyways. About welfare and all, Kthulhu is right. Being on welfare is no joyride. The way the system is setup the moment you start making money, they start taking it away from you. So say you get $100 housing, $150 in foodstamps and a $500 welfare check every month.

Once you get a $6.50 an hour job. You get no welfare check, or they supplment your wages with that welfare check, so the company who hired you doesn't have to pay you a dime. You're working for that check. Then your housing goes up to about $300. Your foodstamps are cut to $60. Great? Great? You were barely making it before, how are you going to scrape by now?

It's a fucked system that is in place just to keep a bunch of fat asses employed. They give you such shit for going in and needing assistance. There is massive amounts of paper work to fill out and then if you don't get a job ASAP they'll stuff you in a JOBS program. This is where you spend 30 - 40hrs a week in their seminars, with another well paid fat ass, telling you "how to go get a job" and they help you fill out your forms for Taco Bell & Burger King ^_^. Oh don't forget to tell them you're on welfare so they get that FREE wage extemption.

Welfare breeds more welfare cases. Kids don't have enough money for college they get a crappy job, they try to make it. They fail at it. Whoops back on welfare.

Then you have another problem. Illegal immigrants. I've seen welfare offices that don't even require verfication of your citizenship. Then you have the whole "Do you need a spanish speaking clerk to help you fill out your welfare forms?". If you're coming to America to get assitance can you please speak english. I understand that Mexico is a shithole right now, but somehow many illegal immigrants are getting thousands of dollars together to get shipped across the border and die in horse trailers. :roll: Where are they getting these thousands of dollars.

Also illegal immigrants are a haven for shitty businesses that take advantage of their status. Tyson chicken awhile back go in trouble and yes alot of farm workers get taken advantage of. "No green card, no problem ~ but we'll only pay you $1/hr or less". How they survive is making arrangements with landlords to stack 20 people in a room with them all making $1/hr. This problem is agrivated by Mexico being mostly a Catholic country and people are encouraged to have children. Birth control = no no. That's why I see so many Mexican people with 6 kids in tow and I am wondering "WTF?".

Corporate america is no better. There is such a thing as corporate welfare. The powers that be are corrupting this country from the inside out. It's been done for so long now, people just accept it. Cheney and his Enron scandel. Bush and his destruction of the tax on chemical and oil companies that pollute so that it can aid in SuperFund cleanup sites. Bush and his little Oil war. Bush and his Alaskan oil drilling ideals. Cheney and his insistance on the need for Nuclear power. This isn't even including the massive tax right offs and how the government keeps allowing jobs to be shipped over seas. <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/08 ... html">Read this</a> companies don't even need to send operations over seas. They can just import and exploit these people legally in the United States, while shafting hard-working American employees.

Another kind of welfare is the family welfare. Why do you receive tax credit for having a kid? Why do you get more exemptions for having kids? Why add to the problem. There are six BILLION people already. We need no more. Everytime I hear people talk about "OMG you're have a kid congrats!", I think "OMG Another useless human being.". The point is in this world human life is worth SHIT. S-H-I-T. Technically you could probably sell body and it's fluids for nearly 45million I believe. But of course you would be dead. The lie that "All men are created equal" is just that, a lie. I believe in no tax cuts, no nothing for people bringing another child into the world. If you think you're ready to raise a kid, bring another comsuming body into this world, be prepared. I am so tired of parents going... get this let me make the emote for this...


ermm.

;_; --- no wait bigger

;_;
IT'S SO COSTLY TO RAISE A CHILD THESE DAYS, I HAVE SO MUCH DEBT I NEED THESE TAX CUTS TO ASSIST MY FAMILY!


WRONG! You should have decided that before you thought it was wise to have a baby. Or two or three babies. I constantly here "I have a wife and two kids to feed and a mortgage due at the end of the month?". Guess what, no one gives shit. Not just me! But corporate america and your governement. The real reason why people get tax breaks. Notice the tax breaks really don't do alot. They're like $400, which is a help. But it's not massive. It in no way offsets the actual cost of feeding, clothing, keeping a kid healthy and all the goddamn fucking time it takes or the cost of having someone else raise your child. There are a few reasons this is done. 1)There are fools who have the idea that everyone should have the chance to raise kids and be REWARDED FOR BEING RETARDED. 2) There are people of religious conviction that believe it is our duty to rape and pillage and consume every fuckin square inch of the land. 3) There are people out there who pray off of the desparation of others. The whole fucking work cycle is desparation. How do you make people desparate. A very obvious way, and one we're seeing now, is NOT ENOUGH JOBS TO HUMANS RATIO. More kids = more humans = more desparation = more money and power for those that are already here.

I am not even bitching about the added benefits that people receive from having a kid and working. It costs me $35 to cover my health insurance for one month. But for them, they can cover their wife, kids, themselves for $80/month. Kids get more sick and cost more than a healthy grown adult. Kids are more likely to injure themselves. Kids are more fuckin' costly, but what's this. A four person family is paying $20/month per person, over me paying $35. Not to mention they're more likely to get ill than I am. I used my insurance once. Someone with kids probably used it 10 times.

In the end, there is going to have to be radical changes to this society. Yes, and people won't like the changes. Lots of people say that though and it never happens. :p Maybe I am spouting lies. But with the way the economy is setup, with the way everything is. There is really very little chance of anyone succeeding and becoming fullfilled in life. Sure there are some who's dream is to have two kids get married and then get in debt by getting a house, going to a job 60hrs a week... BUT ATLEAST THEY GOT THAT NEW TV, or that SHINY card that they only pay $350/mn for. That they don't even own. Fuck they don't even own their house. The Tv is probably bought on a credit card. Yiah for not really owning things but having the idea that you do own it, but you really don't and continue to be a consumer whore.

Truthfully. If everyone was equal right now. If everyone had the exact same amount of money. This world would crumble. Because no one would have the whip in their hand cracking it on the backs of others. Just the way money flows in this world. It's like a river with deep pockets and little channels that sorta close off into ponds. Maybe it's like a mountain, since the moutain packs alot of snow, but occasianly it trickles down to the masses below it. :p Something like that.

Face-it >_> you have a better cahnce of being a 40yr old balding divorced bastard with debt up to his head instead of that astronaut, fire figther or rock star you always wanted to be :p.

I am not saying people can't be happy, that there is no way to be happy. I think there are alot of ways to be happy. But this society is fucked up and yes I feel like blaming it for alot of things.

It's BROKEN! :O

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fyrtenheimer
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Post by fyrtenheimer » Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:55 pm

It cost that much for you because you're only paying for yourself. I mean, that's pretty obvious.

I'm not gonna write a fucken essay, but yeah.
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