A forum for newbies?

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Kionon
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Post by Kionon » Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:29 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:God forbid people have to do some work. :roll:
You have got to be kidding me.

Seriously.

I'm as annoyed by this as you are, and I've been hearing it for three years longer. Unlike you, however, I feel that there is a solution to both sides of the issue. And frankly, what we're doing now is coddling, at least in my opinion. When we ignore, we fail to express our standards and why they exist. When we simply say "here's the guide link, lol" we offer a way out. Instead of instruct, we leave it to the new person, regardless of whether or not they have the context to grasp what we post. That's my point. This influx group is a group which hasn't had to know much beyond point and click. You try explaining aspect ratio or bitrate or YUV vs. RGB to someone who has no prior frame of reference. The guides alone aren't enough, if they were, we'd all have gone to school and read books all day; school wouldn't have had teachers. Concepts need demonstration and application. Real world examples. Theory alone is not enough unless you are already familiar with the topic. Most of these newbies aren't. It's really that simple.

Yeah, you're right. God forbid people have to do some work: Us.
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JaddziaDax
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Post by JaddziaDax » Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:59 pm

you know truthfully I don't mind posting and reposting my "automated messages" it gives me something to do when I first wake up and I'm in zombie mode :3

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BasharOfTheAges
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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:21 pm

Kionon wrote:
BasharOfTheAges wrote:God forbid people have to do some work. :roll:
You have got to be kidding me.

Seriously.

I'm as annoyed by this as you are, and I've been hearing it for three years longer. Unlike you, however, I feel that there is a solution to both sides of the issue. And frankly, what we're doing now is coddling, at least in my opinion. When we ignore, we fail to express our standards and why they exist. When we simply say "here's the guide link, lol" we offer a way out. Instead of instruct, we leave it to the new person, regardless of whether or not they have the context to grasp what we post. That's my point. This influx group is a group which hasn't had to know much beyond point and click. You try explaining aspect ratio or bitrate or YUV vs. RGB to someone who has no prior frame of reference. The guides alone aren't enough, if they were, we'd all have gone to school and read books all day; school wouldn't have had teachers. Concepts need demonstration and application. Real world examples. Theory alone is not enough unless you are already familiar with the topic. Most of these newbies aren't. It's really that simple.

Yeah, you're right. God forbid people have to do some work: Us.
First - I've had absolutely no formal training beyond what has either been provided here and what has been linked in forum posts to elsewhere.

Second - don't let my join date fool you, i was here for well over a year and a half prior to creating this account... take a guess at what i was doing in that time... i'll give you a hint - i was doing something that definitely wouldn't brand my prior posts here as hypocritical. And I find it odd that anyone would find that odd behavior in the least.

We are doing work - we're giving people reality checks. When people go out of their way to write fucking guides and stickies and you ignore every damn motherfucking one of them because it would take up too much of your damned time to think that you're not the center of the god damned universe and it's impossible than anyone ever had the same problem as you, you're being an ignorant prick that deserves to be slapped upside the head with a clue bat until rendered unconscious from all the insight - but we don't do that. Most of us don't even go so far as to let our annoyance show.

Maybe you're an optimist, but from where i'm sitting i can see that the vast majority of people on the internet are mindless fucks that wouldn't get anything out of it even if it were plated in solid gold with giant flashing banners surrounding the thing screaming "click here."
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Kalium
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Post by Kalium » Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:38 pm

One thing I've learned over my years on the net is this: you can lead the newbie to the hand-holding, but you can't make the newbie use it. Horse, water, etc. The sort of newbies that are inclined to be well-behaved will be well-behaved anyway. The sort that are inclined to ignore the rules and do whatever the fuck they feel like will anyway.

A newbie tank? Put me down as finding it foolish. I don't see the benefits. It'll be ignored by the targets audience - newbies.

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Garridy
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Post by Garridy » Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:42 pm

I've seen this enforced in a few forums, and dunno if it will work here, but you could make it so the Annoucements board (and any others) are barred to newly registered members unless they have a high enough post count (And it has to be spam-free...meaning they can't spend all their time posting in the Anime and Music boards), and or any other criteria. Like I mentioned, it's worked well in a few other forums in serving as a 'toll booth'.

Just an idea :3
I would definitely be against a required number of posts before announcing a vid. Just because they are a new member doesnt mean they dont have anything worth watching. Also, no matter what is done to prevent it, there woud be a lot more spam and dumb questions.

As for the new peoples board, I'm not sure. I suppose it wouldnt be too bad of an idea. Although, who knows what sort of side effects such a addition would make.
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Greggus1
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Post by Greggus1 » Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:46 pm

Hmm, hadn't seen this thread.

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aesling
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Post by aesling » Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:22 pm

Calm down Bashar. If you don't like the idea, fine, but you're still not addressing the fact that the current method of dealing with things isn't working. Care to offer any alternate suggestions?
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prYzm
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Post by prYzm » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:28 am

after reading it all i kinda agree with both parties, having some sort of forum would be good, but posting the restrictions seems a little harsh. however what i seem to get is you arnt arguing for a 'newbie forum' so to speak. the general consensus is that people get irritated at all of the tedious repetition of questions and people who lack the will to search for their answers in previous stickies or threads before asking their questions.

so wouldnt some sort of 'general help' forum be a medium between the two? we have the various video or audio forums, people post in avisynth, or other video editing systems, but sometimes the questions we are answering are fairly general. the other one is if someone is new to the org, they may not necessarily know where everything is located, and so we find people posting their questions under general amv instead of their relevant topic area. sure they should look and find the right spot, but they dont, shit happens.

if you had an accuratly labled 'general help' forum, of course people with generic questions are gonna go there, u will also get questions related to ripping, and questions related to vegas, and probably every other genre of question as well in there, but it might eliminate or at least reduce teh amount of stupid questions in incorrect places yes?

it wont address the issue of the announcement thread being harshly treated by some of the vets, but it may help the issue of keeping the 'newbies' from just asking their questions anywhere?

thats my interpretation anyway, others may see things differently
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BasharOfTheAges
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Post by BasharOfTheAges » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:44 am

aesling wrote:Calm down Bashar. If you don't like the idea, fine, but you're still not addressing the fact that the current method of dealing with things isn't working. Care to offer any alternate suggestions?
Who says it isn't working? Do you see a increase in the number of stupid questions? The same people asking them a second time? I think it's working as well as it ever has or ever will.
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Kionon
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Post by Kionon » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:30 am

BasharOfTheAges wrote:Who says it isn't working? Do you see a increase in the number of stupid questions? The same people asking them a second time? I think it's working as well as it ever has or ever will.
I strongly, strongly disagree with that assessment. And that's a bit of an understatement for civilized discourse's sake.

Naturally there is an increase, because with each passing day, the artform becomes more and more mainstream. To the point where I have parents, friends, coworkers who otherwise have no interest in anime or fandom, asking me for DVDs of my stuff, because of this "new" remix culture that has "suddenly" developed around them, and they know I've done this for a while, and are suddenly interested in it.

It isn't working because we're not doing anything different. I do see an increase in the number of stupid questions. I do see an increase in the number of incorrectly placed posts. Maybe no one is asking the same question twice, but it's hard to tell who's who when the names all look like SSJFullBleachNarutoYasha4458458. This is not the same place as it was when I joined in 2001, and it isn't even the same place it was when you joined in 2003, or lurked in 2002. The new membership influx is a DIFFERENT breed. One that more accurately represents the general population, and that means that the average newbie will start out with less knowledge than we had.

It may have worked when we all had a modicum of editing knowledge based on our very ability to clue into the community, but that ship has long sailed. Whatever we did then, it doesn't work now.
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