The spoiler to end all spoilers...

[Garylisk]

In my mind:

Perfect endings: Sailor Moon, Full Moon wo Sagashite, Trigun, Saber Marionette J, Tenchi TV, Love Hina, Mahou Tsukai Tai! just to name a few

Endings that left me cold: Evangelion, Berserk, Dragon Half,

Endings that were a good ending and then dragged on longer (For good or bad): Battle Atheletes Victory

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3 hours later: I forgot this reply window was open. I have since taken a nap and eaten.

[dwchang]

On Eva, once again I did get the point of it. And as I said it was made earlier. I believe its episode 19. After Shinji is forced to kill his friend in the Eva that turned angel (and don't try telling me he survived, in the future there is still no cure for that much blood loss). Shinji chooses to be an individual. He choose to finally stop looking for other people to accept him. And then what occurs, he sees someone growing watermelons and goes back. I'm sorry the show clearly should end at this point. Don't believe me watch EOE and that episode. Notice Shinji basicly the exact same character in both.

No he didn't. He finally accepts this in Episode 26 while in Instrumentality. If that were the case, why does he choose not to fight and be a coward in EoE? If he were so confident in himself and an individual, he wouldn't have been so paralyzed.

Watermelons? Huh? The only scene with watermelons is in Episode....19 PRIOR to him attacking/destroying that angel. It was with Kaji and Kaji was watering his watermelons. I don't see your point in that this was some magical ending where Shinji realized everything. You're very wrong here and the other 7 episodes were very necessary for all the "indentity searching" that was done. I'd go so far as to say that there are no useless episodes in Evangelion.

And in fact, the episodes you say should be cut are probably the most important. We learn who Rei really is, the plot for Instrumentality, Asuka's own search for identity, Kaji's death and well...Episode 25/26 which are debateably the most important.

Oh and Toji lived. Again, you obviously weren't paying much attention when they SHOW HIM in the hospital bed...ALIVE. This in itself tells me that you weren't paying much attention since it is explicitely shown in a scene for at least 2 or 3 minutes.

Again, watch the show again. You obviously missed something.

Oh and dwchang, don't condesending me. There was a lot of "lets name them angels for no reason", "lets have objects from the bible appear for no reason", thats what is call philo-bable (actually its religio-bable). Look at UncleMilo if you want an idea of how to debate a post. He made his points clear on why he thought the ending was good (I don't understand why he thinks I want Vash to kill Knives though). What am I wrong on. Did Sinji not do what UncleMilo claims he did episodes earlier or not.

UncleMilo thanks for your critizisims. Can I ask now that I expanded on my points do you understand (if not agree) at least on where I am comming from.

"Don't condescending me?" I don't think you can use that word as a verb by adding "ing" to it, but regardless I understand your jumbled grammar.

Actually, all that "babble" you speak of did have a point in the story. There are actually very few things that aren't explained or symbolic of something. If you think it's just "religio-babble" then you, again, need to watch the show again. Do you seriously need the show to *tell you* everything and if it doesn't it's just babble?

As for Uncle Milo, he and I agree nearly 100% on Evangelion. He's just being more patient than I. I'd have written the same thing if:
A) I hadn't already written that stuff about 9 or 10 other times
B) I wasn't annoyed by your negative comments

I will admit that I could've been more patient and said the same thing and I'm sorry, but you obviously haven't been on the boards that long...I've explained this at least 9 or 10 times and it gets a little old and obviously annoys me. Again...sorry, but my advice is still the same...watch the show again. It's quite apparent to me and probably 50% of the people reading that you missed something.

[UncleMilo]

SPOILERS AGAIN














Well... you're wrong. The ending IS that Vash chooses to not kill Knives, but to try to teach him the lesson. THAT IS THE ENDING. Success or failure isn't the point. We can teach our children that violence is wrong... but does that mean they'll listen? Over 11 million people died at the hands of Hitler's regime... this certainly should have taught the world the lesson that unmonitored hatred and ignorance leads to nightmarish events like the Holocaust...but there are many in America today who don't believe the Holocaust even happened or that the events of the past really matter that much today.

You're wrong in assuming that my statement was that because Vash chooses to teach Knives the lesson means he will succeed... That was NEVER my point. The point is that VASH is going to try. THAT IS THE END. Vash could just kill Knives... but he didn't. He chose to TRY

THE END.

As for EVA - I think the fact you're complaining about Toji surviving shows you are focussing way too much on the wrong things. They were able to reconstruct Shinji from LCL fluid, I think they can help save Toji from his blood loss... and we don't know how much loss Toji had... After all... the EVAs bleed as well (they being organic life forms). The watermellon scene only helped Shinji find resolve... he realized in that particular moment that his choice didn't just effect him, but also effected everyone else. At that point, he was still OK with running away from himself, but he knew he couldn't run away from others. He had found his value as an EVA pilot (but as Asuka would later warn... if you only place value on yourself as one thing, that is an equally dangerous path.) Asuka defined herself as being superior... her value came from success... When she no longer felt success... she lost value in herself and slipped into depression...
There was still a way to go... and the scene with the Watermellons was pretty close to the end of the show. Shinji was turning around, but he wasn't there yet. It took the final two eps for him to find his complete answer.

I won't touch End of Evangelion, because I think the movie should never have been made. It was made because of the number of fans who didn't want to take the time to think about Evangelion and just wanted Gainax to give them an asnwer. The movie is just more of what was going on outside... while Shinji had to face his final test.

Remember - Shinji killed Kaoru... this was the worst thing... because Shinji felt of no value deep inside... his only worth at that point was him as an EVA pilot, not as a person. He felt that Kaoru was the better person... that he should have lived... in killing Kaoru, Shinji was at a crossroad... and he had to find his answer... he had to redefiune himself... outside, he was miserable for killing Kaoru and usesless... but in his mind, he was doing the final battle of the show... the battle with himself.

Now... I have to jump in here about the religious stuff...

The SURFACE story of Evangelion is based on the Khaballa... all the Angel names come from the Khaballa, as do many of the symbols that appear in the show. The design of the Angels, the EVAs and even some of the technology in NERV (and some other things) all come from a clever re-telling of the Khaballa. The story, while being its own stroy, cleverly integrates the Khaballah within it... and so there is a reason for the angels having the names they have and the items being where they are... but this just shows how much depth and research went into the writing of this show. You can get through EVA without knowing the religious stuff, but you can't say the religious stuff is there for no reason.

It was suggested to me by one of my friends that another concept you can take home with you from Evangelion is the religion argument.

If you don't mind me getting a little detailed here...

It has been argued that religion takes these steps (and this is painfully simplified)

Step 1: GODS
Man doesn't know what's going on... he creates a bunch of gods who are all like man himself. They drink, they fight, they love... and most importantly, they really care a lot about every little thing Man does.

STEP 2: GOD
Man starts taking a little responsability for himself. He reduces the GODS down to a single God... this God is not as directly linked with man's actions. He is more like a supervisor... he is an entity that is of higher elevation than man... He doesn't check in day to day... he simply helps guide men down a path... but day to day life is now the responsability of man, but the big picture is that of the divine.

STEP 3: MAN
Man realizes that all these supernatural beings are devices he, himself invented to help deal with the many things he didn't understand. Man finally realizes that despite the fact he has no real idea of what's going on in the world... that he, ALONE, is responsible for all his own actions... end of story.

Now.... with that said, some have mentioned that they feel that not only is EVA a story about the boy becoming a man... but also a story of man overthrowing the shackles of gods and entering into an age of self-responsibility.

Well...

That is my response to your comments.

-Uncle Milo

[UncleMilo]

As for Uncle Milo, he and I agree nearly 100% on Evangelion. He's just being more patient than I. I'd have written the same thing if:
A) I hadn't already written that stuff about 9 or 10 other times

Tell me about it.

I was writing this stuff before you even got to the boards (or at least before I noticed you on the boards... so I may have my timeline wrong)

You and I have bigger arguments on Escaflowne!
(OK - not that big, but I still hate Vahn!)

Anyway... Evangelion is still my favorite anime titles and I am more prone ot leap into Evangelion arguments than... well... pretty much anyone!

-Uncle Milo

[dwchang]

Asuka defined herself as being superior... her value came from success... When she no longer felt success... she lost value in herself and slipped into depression...

Exactly. Although Shinji somewhat turned around in the late teens (again as you stated, not there yet), there are still a number of other characters that are still being changed and developed.

I won't touch End of Evangelion, because I think the movie should never have been made. It was made because of the number of fans who didn't want to take the time to think about Evangelion and just wanted Gainax to give them an asnwer. The movie is just more of what was going on outside... while Shinji had to face his final test.

I agree. I've in fact heard that the reason a lot of the imagery is so "messed-up" is b/c Anno was angry at the fans. And we all know that he got death-threats (which are displayed in the movie). Like you said, fans wanted him to give them the answers and wanted to know what happened outside when in fact, that's not what matter and is the reason the last two episodes happen *inside* (during) Instrumentality.

Remember - Shinji killed Kaoru... this was the worst thing... because Shinji felt of no value deep inside... his only worth at that point was him as an EVA pilot, not as a person. He felt that Kaoru was the better person... that he should have lived... in killing Kaoru, Shinji was at a crossroad... and he had to find his answer... he had to redefiune himself... outside, he was miserable for killing Kaoru and usesless... but in his mind, he was doing the final battle of the show... the battle with himself.

Not only that, but Kaworu was also the first person to completely accept Shinji and understand him. He *loved* Shinji (and no not in the homosexual way that immature people like to think). The sheer trauma of having to kill that one person in the world who loved him was enough to make Shinji useless and well..the lowest of the low (which is shown in the movie when he masturbates to a comatose Asuka).

I'd say that the things with Kaworu alone is enough to warrant that the show shouldn't have ended at 19.

[HeartbreakerByZep]

Evangelion episode 16 is the perfect ending? Wow that's quite a stretch, seeing as how it isn't an ending at all. Might aswell end Trigun at episode 5, so many things are left unresolved.

[dwchang]

As for Uncle Milo, he and I agree nearly 100% on Evangelion. He's just being more patient than I. I'd have written the same thing if:
A) I hadn't already written that stuff about 9 or 10 other times

Tell me about it.

I was writing this stuff before you even got to the boards (or at least before I noticed you on the boards... so I may have my timeline wrong)

You and I have bigger arguments on Escaflowne!
(OK - not that big, but I still hate Vahn!)

Anyway... Evangelion is still my favorite anime titles and I am more prone ot leap into Evangelion arguments than... well... pretty much anyone!

-Uncle Milo

Nah, I'm pretty sure you've been around a lot longer then me.

As for Escaflowne, yeah, but we already talked all that out and I see your points and respect them since well..it's a taste issue not a more factual based one (which this is...well I guess facts are a stretch, but at least you can point things out in the show that suggest).

As for arguing in Eva threads, I generally will post, but I've been doing it too much lately and just got annoyed by the tone of the poster since it was so negative and in a "I'm right!" fashion. Then again, one could argue that we are doing that, but I'd like to think that are arguments for Evangelion are pretty well-thought and supported by well...the show itself .

[DJ_Izumi]

All I ment to say was 'A lot of anime has the same damn ending, the good guys save the day just in the nick of time' And now you're all argueing over the endings of TV shows at their meanings.

Huzzah. :X

[Nestorath69]

Okay: Here's my response to everything in this thread.






You're right.




You see, the best story doesn't have a definable ending, you draw your own conclusions. in this, Hideaki Anno followed in the footsteps of Ray Bradbury (Good man, i met him in Junior High) and H.P. Lovecraft. (Although some of his, well, most of his had endings) There was a huge boon of writers in the 60's and 70's who wrote hundreds of stories with 'cliffhanger' endings. By forcing you to draw your own conclusions, each person comes away from the story with something new, something unique, only to them. Treasure that. It's what makes us all unique. everyone will always try to put forth their ideas as the 'right' idea, but the end answer will always be: You get whatever you want from it.


Side note: They took stuff from the original jewish kabbala (Correct spelling) AND the apocrypha. The angelic names and the Lance of Longinus came from there. Interestingly enough, though, if you watch the short-lived Fox TV series 'Roar', the roman centurion who drove the spear into Jesus's side was forced to live immortal because of his crime of killing christ, and the only thing that he wanted was to find the spear that killed a god... so that he could die. Cool, eh?

[pyro_256]

The ending of the series is when Sinji leaves Nerv after he is forced to kill his friend, making the choice that it is better to destory mankind than be used for evil.

Why is it evil to sacrifice a few for the good of many? I'd make that choice, whether or not I'd just killed a friend.