Instrumental Anime Project

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pen-pen2002
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Post by pen-pen2002 » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:54 pm

Otohiko wrote:Heh, in other news, now that "Instrumental" made its' own category, and the project is nearly finished, I think this may well be a good time coming up for instrumental videos in general.
I was thinking about this as well. There do seem to be more of them around, also the level of competition in the instrumental category at AWA Pro was phenominal. And with another project on the horizon...

I just found out that the booklet for my DVD has some incredably spiffy artwork. I'll see if I can scan it for the end credit image that I am missing. (You got the one of the rose superimposed on the Rose Nebula right?) I'm a bit confused, correct me if I am wrong.

Submision:

Video (soon...)
Headshot pic (Check)
end-credit pic (check)
monolouge (check)
5 or six monolouge pics (soon...)

Anything else?
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rose4emily
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Post by rose4emily » Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:54 am

Yup, I've got the "rose nebula" picture. I'm only missing your video and narrative images. If you want to submit something else in the place of your current "end credits" video picture, I can always use the new one instead, however.

It's great to hear that everything else is coming together.

Next week is finals week for me, but the week after that is vacation - and I will let nothing stop me from finishing this project before that week is over.

I would like to note that I probably won't have full access to my own FTP when I'm home for vacation, so any submission after the end of the upcoming week should probably be sent through e-mail or snail mail to my Dover address (PM me if you need it and don't have it). I'm trying to get sshd working properly on my server - which would allow effective remote administration - but I might just have to take the archive copy (on my smaller external hard drive, the big one seems to be toast) with me and use my less powerful, but similarly equipped, laptop for the final compilation. It's vacation, so I can actually just get some sleep if I have to wait around for an all-night overnight render.

---

On another note, I tested a miniature version of my "shell-script controlling the compilation and rendering processes" by using it for the creation of my most recent original animation project. Worked like a dream. In the case of the original animation, it also means that I can losslessly store the entire animation as nothing but six PNG images and a 15.8 KiB text file, and that I have a perfect frame-by-frame tracksheet describing what is going on behind the scenes in the animation. It's just 20 seconds of video, but being able to losslessly compress it to less than half a megabyte is still pretty cool. There's that - and there's also my ability to say "screw AfterEffects, I've got command-line image compositing utilities and shell scripting abilities". I'm beginning to understand why some of the more experienced editors are so fond of AVISynth.

It'll be fun to see how it scales to creating the narratives and end credits, and joining all of the finished pieces together. If it doesn't work, I can do it all manually, but I think the automated process is a great way to both document the process behind creating the compilation, and to ensure consistency while allowing me to easily play with tweaking a couple of parameters to see if I can't squeeze just a little more quality out of the final render.
may seeds of dreams fall from my hands -
and by yours be pressed into the ground.

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Post by rose4emily » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:51 pm

It's been a while since I've checked in - kinda surprised that there's been no social chatting or "where the hell is Rose" discussion since my last post.

Anyhow, I now have Pen's full final render. That's a Good Thing (tm). By the way, I've just learned that the phrase "a good thing" is now, and has for a while been, a registered trademark held by Matha Stewart - and I find this amusing. It's at just over a 4:3 aspect, so I'll have to do a little pan-and-scan (albeit vertically, rather than horizontally, and for the purpose of letterboxing a non-letterboxed picture - now there's a twist on some old film-to-television reformatting procedures: "this picture has been formatted to not fit your screen - unless, of course, you're watching this on one of those new 16:9 HD displays"). Good news, though, is that I've cleared out a lot of disk space so I'll have room for the uncompressed video sources I'll be using to test Hikari's (my video editing app's) rendering pipeline as I put it together. Since I haven't yet put anything into that disk space, I'm thinking one of my test streams is going to look a lot like some Koji Morimoto footage accompanied by the Kronos Quartet.

This will allow me to apply a variable position of the "window" around which the video will be cropped, in case a static removal of the top and bottom doesn't work quite right.

Actually - this just came to mind - I also will check to see if non-square pixels are part of the issue, as the video is (data-wise) 720x480, but is defined as 4:3, and therefore displayed as 720x540. 16:9 would be 720x405, and the picture has a bit of black border on the top and bottom, so I might be dealing with a case where the best approach would be to define the non-square pixels as square and then trim the picture evenly from the top and bottom - which would only remove about 20-25 pixels of actual picture from the upper and lower edges. I think this might be what was done with the first render - as the vertical-to-horizontal proportions of objects in the first render are somewhat smaller than in the render I just recieved - yet (probably because this is animation - albeit exceptionally detailed hyperrealistic animation, and therefore an abstraction of actual form) neither seems disproportioned when viewed. Couldn't get away with this degree of aspect-stretching with live-action footage, but it seems to work with anime, and would greatly reduce the degree to which content is being removed from the viewable area of the screen.

So, now, if we can just get Song's new narritives (all attempts to recover the disk they were on have failed - and I can neither read data from the damaged partition, nor reformat it - which means I now have an grossly overpriced magnetic paperweight, and my last hopes of sparing Song the hassle of re-recording narratives that were perfectly good the last time around have been scrapped), I'll have all the pieces I need for the compilation. I've one more final, on Friday, to prepare for - followed by an eight (read 12-16, from my past experience) hour train ride where I prepare all the composited narrative images, come up with credit images to stand in for the ones I haven't recieved, and hammer out a concept for the intro that is both attractive and within the practical limits of my time and editing skill. Over the week I'll finish the intro, match the composited narrative images to the narrative audio, possibly re-record my own narritives (if I can manage to get better audio quality on my parent's computer, which doesn't have it's soundcard stuffed immediately between the CPU and power supply - this is a bad thing, which causes a lot of hum and noise in the recording), and encode the whole thing. There's plenty to be done, but at least I now have a decent window of time in which I can do it.

I'll also try to pump a little more quality out of the final render then is presented by the preview renders. I've learned an awful lot about video compression and encoding (among other things) while doing the background research needed to lay out the architecture for my video editing app, and have a few ideas that might get better results than I pulled out of my trial-and-error approach for the preview render:

1) Larger Picture. I think I ought to try encoding it at 640x480/640x360 and 720x540/720x405 to see how much better the picture looks with each macroblock responsible for a smaller portion of the overall picture, and the frequency spectrum output of the DCT shifted to a lower range - where the quantization tables keep more of the original vidoe information. Then I'll have to see how much the filesizes increase to determine whether the added quality is justified.

2) Shape-adaptive filtering. I was using a 'smart' Gaussian blur, with a threshold set to make it smooth the picture significantly more in "flat" regions than along detailed edges - with the intention of reducing blocking and 'mosquito-noise' artifacts from the original DVD compression, and whatever other re-compression was applied after that. I point to my own video as the probable worst offender, which is already 4th generation before entering the compilation:

1 - DVD
2 - fansub (I know, bad - but I started it before I had spare money for DVDs, and didn't think to edit it in a fashion that leant to substituting in better footage after-the-fact).
3 - converted to encoding Cinelerra could understand (before I knew how well editing lossless image streams worked)
4 - encoded as XviD while the lossless copy was, well, lost.

Shape adaptive filtering is essentially 'smarter' filtering, that tries to actually discern regions from points of sharp discontinuity. It sounds promising, but I haven't tried it yet, so I don't know whether it will help to 'clean up' some or all of the videos before the final encode. It's probably also slow, but that's why you start a render just before you go to sleep.

3) Comparing the XviD MPEG4 codec, FFMPEG (the one I used last time) MPEG4 codec, and Ogg Theora codec for quality/size. Primary distribution in Theora would be kinda crazy, however, given how few people actually have the relatively new (okay, still alpha-release) codec installed, so it's really a question of XviD vs. FFMPEG in the special case of animated footage with a comparison to Theora purely for the sake of satisfying my own cureosity. I'll also try H.264 if I can find a free (as in beer, open or not) implementation. H.264 is really just an updated flavor of MPEG4 with vast improvements in the encoding logic that should produce a sharper, cleaner picture at the same bitrate - but might also be a problem in terms of playback compatibility. I know a lot about it on the tech spec side, but I'd have to actually get my hands on a Windows machine to see if it is available in WMP as either an installed or automatically downloadable (I think WMP can do that) codec. I'll also check to see what Quicktime can play, because that should cover Apple compatibility. Optimally, animation would be encoded with motion predictors and quantization tables based on detailed knowledge of the source cells and animation procedure, rather than generated through analysis of the post-animation film - but that's really not an option for us, so it's more a matter of determining which general-purpose codec does best overall for the range of footage styles seen in this project.

4) Targeting a per-section file size of about 500-600 MB, rather than the 250 for the preview renders. The added size from the intro, credits, and narratives will be relatively small due to the limited motion in and duration of these segments, so most of these added bits can be applied to the musical segments themselves. BTW, this figure is based on the idea of < 100 MB per segment, counting the "extras" as one segment per section - and the pragmatic concept of producing a per-section filesize that fits neatly onto a standard CD without too much wasted space.

5) This isn't actually anything different, but I should add that I'll be encoding off of the originals, not the preview renders, to avoid creating an extra generation and to take advantage of the fact that over half of the videos were sent to me in sizes other than 512x384/512x288 in the first place (why rescale twice, when you can do it in one neat step?).
may seeds of dreams fall from my hands -
and by yours be pressed into the ground.

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Songbird21
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Post by Songbird21 » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:55 pm

I'll try ta get the narratives back in by the end of the week. :)
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Otohiko
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Post by Otohiko » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:28 pm

As far as the missing narrative images, the best choice is just to grab some screencaps out of the videos themselves, I think.

In terms of the compression - I certainly like the idea of higher-quality renders, whatever the format. The main concern, I guess, is the distribution now. I think someone should really get in touch with AbsoluteDestiny on this one (or Phade, but I suspect the latter is too inactive to get a quick answer) - since the new storage server is now supposedly up, we could ask what the planned regulations are on MEP hosting. That way, I think you could have a better idea of what sort of compression we need to have this hosted locally once such hosting is in place.

And yea, I've been dead in the last couple of days too - and I've actually been very useless in general lately, besides making random posts on the forum during quiet breaks. I'm actually up to my ears in all sorts of non-AMV commitments now :roll:
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Kalium
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Post by Kalium » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:42 pm

I think this would be an appropriate place to interject that if a bittorrent is going to be used for distribution, I can aid in predistro. Assuming the file isn't over 900-950 meg or so (I've got a gig of university hosting to play with). I did the same thing for DDR4.

Yes, I still spy on this thread.

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Post by jasper-isis » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:52 pm

Kalium wrote:Yes, I still spy on this thread.
Heh, apparently a number of other people do, too. Probably not too many as of late though.

Rose4Emily: is there anything that you need help with now?
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rose4emily
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Post by rose4emily » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:27 am

Otohiko wrote: As far as the missing narrative images, the best choice is just to grab some screencaps out of the videos themselves, I think.
No, no missing narrative images come to mind - just missing end credits images. And yes, I wll be filling the missing end-credit video tiles with screencaps from the vides.
Otohiko wrote: In terms of the compression - I certainly like the idea of higher-quality renders, whatever the format. The main concern, I guess, is the distribution now. I think someone should really get in touch with AbsoluteDestiny on this one (or Phade, but I suspect the latter is too inactive to get a quick answer) - since the new storage server is now supposedly up, we could ask what the planned regulations are on MEP hosting. That way, I think you could have a better idea of what sort of compression we need to have this hosted locally once such hosting is in place.
Good thought. I should also ask for this thread in the form of its XML backing data (I think that how these are stored) so I can reference it over vacation - when I will most likely be offline most of the time. I could also just download all 78 pages of it, one by one, but it'd be much better to just have the text in a fast-loading, easily searchable format.

I'm guessing that the max size would be proportional to the length of the project. Otherwise we're pretty much screwed as far as a high-quality distribution goes.

I did just have a crazy idea, though: an AnimeMusicVideos.org AMV bittorrent tracker. Think of the reduction in bandwidth costs, with the donut acting as a seed rather than the sole distributer for all of the really popular, frequently downloaded videos.

I think I'll be taking a trip over to the "site suggestions" forum.
Jasper-Isis wrote: Rose4Emily: is there anything that you need help with now?
First of all, thank you for the offer.

If you have any brilliant ideas for the intro that you think I could pull off, or that you have time to make yourself (you're definately a more talented editor than I am, but I don't know what your schedule looks like), that'd be a huge help. I'm kind of stuck on that one, and have been for a while. I'm also open to suggestions for intro music, as the selection I've chosen ("A Step Forward Into Terror") seems to be part of my problem - it contains an awful lot of fanfare, and I'm at a loss for sustainable visuals that would lend themselves to the same effect.

I'll still keep searching for ideas, and will make a re-introduction for the widescreen section if we both come up with good motifs within the next few days, but it would be nice to have a second person helping me out on what will most likely become the final bottleneck in the road to this project's completion.
may seeds of dreams fall from my hands -
and by yours be pressed into the ground.

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downwithpants
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Post by downwithpants » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:22 am

are we still going to have a low quality (~100MB) version? i'm afraid that the high quality versions will scare away 56k people or people with extremely small hard drives.

as for an intro, it doesn't need to be too fancy or too long. maybe just show the project title and a list of the creators.
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Post by ooshna » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:16 am

Lmao no wonder I haven't been able to fin this thread. It got moved. Well where are we with it. I just upgraded my web host and can dedicate the space and probably about 30gb or tranfer but I will only do it if I can learn how to make my server use BT so more people can get it

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