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Simpi
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Post by Simpi » Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:36 am

El Banana wrote: It surprises me that there are still You are not my hero, but you got your quotes right, and I agree with most of what you said.
My favorite War-term: Collateral Damage.
Hopefully people understood the irony. It should have been 'War terms on U.S perspective', since stuff what U.S officials keep putting out is pretty disgusting. Jim Wilkinson, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command: "resistance of Iraqi people should be considered nothing less than state-sponsored terrorism."

Buhuu....sorry if I don't cry a river for you Jimmy boy.

Heres another. Quote by british commander

Iraqi's are using 'technicals' and unconvetional tactics in fight against us = They dared to wreck my beautiful Bradley's instead of coming out for trashing....
"Finland is an acquired taste -

- Mike Pondsmith -

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madmallard
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Post by madmallard » Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:31 pm

Simpi wrote: Mass murderer, oh yes... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1837283.stm

I could not find the Unicef report what mentions Bush by name but this action alone has costed thousands of lives around the world, because Bush obviously had to suck up some his religious friends.
I hope you realise how stupid posting this article makes you look.
from the article wrote:Family planning organisations in Kenya say they are being forced to close clinics in the slums after a cut in funding from the US Government.

Alice Njoki calls the receptionist at a busy clinic in the Eastleigh slum of Nairobi. Alice, a fruit seller in Nairobi, steps up to the desk and hands over her appointment card. She has been coming here for five years. Alice is not a rich woman, but she devotes her small income to giving her only child, Thelma, a good upbringing. Her hope is that her daughter will grow up and leave their slum home.
Okay.
This dream is unlikely to be realised if Alice gets pregnant again, as she cannot afford another child. Once a month, she receives a contraceptive injection at this clinic. But a decision taken far away in America is about to have an impact on Alice's life.
Then we have the journalist trying to play on the "Big unfeeling evil zionist america" angle.
"I'm sorry to tell you", says the nurse, as Alice rolls up her sleeve for the injection, "This is the last time you will be here.From the end of the month, we are closing down."
The clinic is one of five across Kenya to be shut because of a decision taken by George W Bush shortly after he became President last year.
He announced that the US Government would not fund international agencies which support abortion. The move was seen as an attempt to appease the powerful anti-abortion lobby in the United States. But the clinics run by pro-choice organisations in Kenya, mainly offer family planning services, not abortion.
The Eastleigh clinic is run by the Kenya Family Planning Association, which is part of the larger International Planned Parenthood Federation. It offers a cheap but high-quality services.
Upon looking up on the web, this is a non-profit charity organisation based out of the UK whos primary contributors have been many small European nations including Finland, as well as not so small Germany, Japan, and US (until last year.) Its not surprising that this organisation is based in a region where it expects the government to provide health care for its populus.
The nurse tells Alice of an alternative privately-run clinic where she can receive her monthly injection, but it will cost her three times as much. Alice does not know whether she can afford it.
"I don't know what's going to happen now. I'm afraid I might get pregnant," she says.
Don't have sex.
The Family Planning Association's director is Godwin Mzenge.He says his funding has been cut by 20%, and there may be worse to come. "We may end up closing eight of our 14 clinics," he says. "It means maybe three-quarters of the organisation will collapse altogether." He points out that it is not just birth control services which are lost. Breast cancer screening and cervical smear tests will also go.
At the headquarters of Marie Stopes in Nairobi it is a similar picture. They have closed two clinics, one in Mathere slum in Kenya and another in Kisumu, Western Kenya. Head of clinical services there, Martha Warratho, says the Bush administration's policy hits poor women hardest. "Without family planning, you have unwanted pregnancies," she says.
its not like we dont know what causes pregnancy. Without sex, you have no pregnancies. Funny how that works. . .If you can't afford a child and can barely afford to take care of yourself, what business do you have of having sex with a risk of getting pregnant?
"Some mothers end up doing abortion in the backstreets because they do not have any alternative."
The alternative is stop having sex.
Technically, abortion is illegal in Kenya however the law is widely flouted and it can cost as little as $10 to have a backstreet abortion.
Lets keep in mind, this clinic is NOT Kenyan, Its run by an international organisation from the UK.
But it is dangerous, and many women die every year from these primitive procedures. Dr John Nyamu, who runs a reproductive health practice, is blunt about the consequences of the Bush administration's policy."If you take away family planning services, the number of abortions goes up," he says.
But supporters say it is not the US Government which is closing down clinics in Kenya. Grover Joseph Rees is an adviser to Congress. He points out that organisations like Marie Stopes had a choice. "Marie Stopes had to make a decision if it wanted to keep on getting US Government funds," he says. "It made the decision that it was more important for them to be in the abortion business."
Pay very close attention to this. The Marie Stopes's 2 clinics, which AREN't connected to that international organisation from UK, could have made the choice to suspend its abortion services, which are illegal in Kenya anyways. They could've continued giving all those other good services, contraceptives, consulations, everything, if they had dropped abortion, but they didn't. They decided it was more important to make a political stand than to drop the issue so they could continue to get money from the US to give other kinds of aid. The clinic made that choice.
Privately, American officials argue the impact of the US policy in Kenya will be limited.

The bulk of US money for family planning is spent in the state sector. This is not affected by the new rules on funding, because the Kenyan state does not sanction abortion.
Let me reiterate this. The US government is STILL sending money directly to the government of Kenya for family planning as they do not support abortion. They stopped sending money to this international organisation from the UK only.
Kenyan anti-abortionists also welcome the US intervention. Dr Jean Kagia is obstetrician by profession. She is dismayed by the ease of access to abortion in her country. Her view is that foreign, pro-choice organisations should not be allowed to operate in Kenya.
Dont forget, Abortion is illegal currently in Kenya. This makes organisations operating with those procedures against the law.
"Close them all down," she says. "If a donor country has realised that this has actually made the population smaller by killing the population of that country, I say thank you very much indeed to the US government."
But American policy is forcing poor women like Alice make stark choices. Ironically, if they cannot find the money to pay for more expensive birth control, some may choose the dangers of cheap abortion.
Or they could, say it with me now, stop having sex.
you see, sempi, by calling bush a mass murderer over this issue only makes you look dumb. you were better off trying to call him a mass murder for the Gulf War.
This is a decision from Bush based on a moral and ethical foundation from him, his constituants, and the general populace of America that pays taxes. Your morals may not agree with this, clearly, and that is your right, since your country continues to use your tax money to fund this organisation. However, since you want to dismiss his decision as sucking up to his religious friends, rather than a concious decision, I could say the same about your country's politicians. By continuing to support this organisation, they're sucking up to their liberal, pro-choice, un-religious friends.

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madmallard
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Post by madmallard » Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:52 pm

and as far as this stuff.. . .
War terms:
Iraqi troops have retreated to defend the cities and the people there, instead of exposing their forces = Iraqis use human shields.
We sure havent seen them defend anything but themselves. They regularly grab civilians and ACTUALLY USE THEM as shields, or force them out at gunpoint. That sure is a crumby way to defend them.
what they ARE doing is hiding in civillian houses and ambushing troops that go by while holding old women and children.
U.S. bombs cities from the air with thousands of weapons, killing equal amount of civilians = Marvel of technology
A quick look at the Iraqometer shows that the deathtoll for military personel is in the 10,000 region. another 8000 have surrendered. An undetermined amount has deserted. Confirmed civillian casualties rest shy of 1000.
11,000 people confirmed dead is awful. However, when you confirm that almost 1/8th of those civillians were killed in confusion fighting with iraqis, and another 1/8 BY iraqis while fighting, its extremely amazing. add to that that we've dropped 10,000 bombs with precision guided tech, and dropped some of them in residential cities, including Baghdad, where military targets were hiding.
10,000 bombs, and only 800 civillian casualties? Go check some ww2 or vietnam, or any other conflict where civilian territory was intentionally bombed and so few civillian casualties occured.
Iraqis drive anpick-up truck to a check point and blow up US soldiers = terror tactics
iraqi disguised as a civillian in a civillian pickup truck under the false pretense of surrendering blows up us soldiers = terror tactics
civillian driving a van with a bomb in it because soldiers came and took her child away and told her they'd kill him if she didn't do it = terror tactics
civilian-dressed Special Ops and CIA spotters = clever and heroic.
Spotters operate in small numbers for survellience not strike, and those dressed as civillians are often unarmed. Try again.
Plainclothes Iraqi soldier = Terror tactics
i dont call this terror tactics, i call this too poor to afford a uniform and equipment. However when he starts waving a white flag just to get troops closer to him, then i call it a war crime.
Attacking Iraq = Liberation
we arent attacking iraq. We're attacking (whats left of ) the Military regime and the socialist Baath party behind it.
If we were attacking Iraq, my friend, Iraq would be leveled by the first day, not just Baghdad.

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El Banana
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Post by El Banana » Mon Apr 07, 2003 10:44 pm

sixstop wrote: Don't have sex.
I completely agree. I love it how they made it seem like "Alice" had no choice but an abortion. I agree with your views on that article.

As far as the war goes, people really have to stop seeing things in black and white. War is hell. Atrocities happen every day, NOT ONLY done by the "enemy". And I'm not only talking about Iraq. Both sides will ALWAYS try to make it seem like they're good and the other side's evil. It's called "Propaganda".
I like bugging people. Deal with it.

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Simpi
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Post by Simpi » Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:33 am

sixstop wrote:and as far as this stuff.. . .
War terms:.
U.S. bombs cities from the air with thousands of weapons, killing equal amount of civilians = Marvel of technology
A quick look at the Iraqometer shows that the deathtoll for military personel is in the 10,000...
10,000 bombs, and only 800 civillian casualties? Go check some ww2 or vietnam, or any other conflict where civilian territory was intentionally bombed and so few civillian casualties occured.
It's just too bad that I really cannot believe much of the numbers that are put out, either Iraqi or american source. btw, Iraqometer is still behind casualty reports even if they believe CNN reports http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/f ... index.html

I believe most numbers are played down, since CNN hasn't reported all casualties (i'll dig you up a link to british media which mentions at least few casualties who are not there yet....) yet and other news services play them down even less.. most likely your casualties are way higher than announced.
iraqi disguised as a civillian in a civillian pickup truck under the false pretense of surrendering blows up us soldiers = terror tactics
= Dedicated man willing to die for his country i'd say.
civillian driving a van with a bomb in it because soldiers came and took her child away and told her they'd kill him if she didn't do it = terror tactics.
Supply me with a link please.
Spotters operate in small numbers for survellience not strike, and those dressed as civillians are often unarmed. Try again.
Does not change the fact that they are still enemy soldiers.
we arent attacking iraq. We're attacking (whats left of ) the Military regime and the socialist Baath party behind it.
If we were attacking Iraq, my friend, Iraq would be leveled by the first day, not just Baghdad.
I must be living in different kind of world. If somebody would shoot a missile to Finland i'd definitly call it an 'attack against my country' and not dismiss it by saying: 'Oh, it's just those cuddly yanks who want to topple our despotic leader, they don't want nothing bad to me cause they just aim at military targets...'. Seriously, explain me why YOU THINK your country is invading Iraq.

Other issue. The link was pretty bad when you consider it. Here is a bit more analytical: http://www.aegis.com/news/ips/2001/IP010107.html
"Finland is an acquired taste -

- Mike Pondsmith -

EarthCurrent
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Post by EarthCurrent » Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:54 am

Simpi wrote:I must be living in different kind of world. If somebody would shoot a missile to Finland i'd definitly call it an 'attack against my country' and not dismiss it by saying: 'Oh, it's just those cuddly yanks who want to topple our despotic leader, they don't want nothing bad to me cause they just aim at military targets...'. Seriously, explain me why YOU THINK your country is invading Iraq.
Bah...Russia need to reign in you renegade Fins and bring you back into the fold of the Motherland....or somethin'... :?



:roll:

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madmallard
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Post by madmallard » Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:44 am

earthcurrent wrote:Bah...Russia need to reign in you renegade Fins and bring you back into the fold of the Motherland....or somethin'... :?



:roll:

{{SPIT TAKE}}}

ohhhhh! Sacked in the back field!

i was about to come up with a more substantive arguement, but now i have to go clean off my monitor and keyboard.

also curious sempi, you had nothing to retort about the whole abortion-mass-murder-funding you posted . . . .

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Simpi
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Post by Simpi » Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:35 am

sixstop wrote:
also curious sempi, you had nothing to retort about the whole abortion-mass-murder-funding you posted . . . .
I mainly waited if you had any comments about the link. Ok, i'll back out a bit on my claims. It cannot be denied that lot's of problems developing countries face are because of their own superstion about AIDS and prevention: http://hrw.org/editorials/2002/aids_africa1.htm

and that is not Bush's fault. However, the list of organisations whose budgets were slashed also includes several organisations whose duties included basic health care services, which are no longer available to people = more deaths.

Abortion is not the only issue here. Budget cuts were also directed those organisations who offer family planning and HIV prevention. To put it simple, if they offered a condom to somebody they would lose money.
Do you know how many % of africans are estimated to have HIV and how many will die because of it in a decade.

I don't support abortion as a method of prevention either but I understand that unwanted child is even worse option in developing country. In other words, use condom.

And Bush has the sole authority to take away these fund or give them back. He want's to sweep the whole issue under the carpet and wish no-one will notice that problem of HIV won't go away, either domestically or globally: http://www.aegis.com/news/sc/2001/SC010707.html

btw, you did not say why you think US attacked Iraq.
"Finland is an acquired taste -

- Mike Pondsmith -

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jonmartensen
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Post by jonmartensen » Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:15 pm

Simpi wrote:
sixstop wrote:
also curious sempi, you had nothing to retort about the whole abortion-mass-murder-funding you posted . . . .
Abortion is not the only issue here. Budget cuts were also directed those organisations who offer family planning and HIV prevention. To put it simple, if they offered a condom to somebody they would lose money.
Do you know how many % of africans are estimated to have HIV and how many will die because of it in a decade.

I don't support abortion as a method of prevention either but I understand that unwanted child is even worse option in developing country. In other words, use condom.

And Bush has the sole authority to take away these fund or give them back. He want's to sweep the whole issue under the carpet and wish no-one will notice that problem of HIV won't go away, either domestically or globally: http://www.aegis.com/news/sc/2001/SC010707.html
The whole issue, though, is that funding is cut that is supplied to Family Planning centers that provide preventative meassures along with offering abortion procedures. They can not send the money and say "You can use this for everything but abortions", that just wouldn't work. Funding is being cut to international agencies that support abortion, even if that is not the only service they provide.
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Post by CaTaClYsM » Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:35 pm

I wonder if these women even realize that they have a choice to say no when their BF/Husband asks them for sex.
So in other words, one part of the community is waging war on another part of the community because they take their community seriously enough to want to do so. Then they tell the powerless side to get over the loss cause it's just an online community. I'm glad people make so much sense." -- Tab

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