Talent, Skill, Popularity, and Misogyny: A Feminist Critique

[Beowulf]

holy shit wtf does any of this have to do with amvs.

[AMVGuide]

Well, we were just talking about objectifying men and women in AMVs. It does happen.

[Kionon]

Old Man,

Well, again, I'm not getting into that topic. It deserves its own thread entirely, and I'm not sure I'm the best one to make that argument anyway. Since our source is anime, I think any of discussion of objectification of characters in AMVs would come as a section under a wider exploration of those themes in anime in general. Maybe General Anime would be a better place for such a topic?

At this point, I am largely more concerned with how AMV creators treat other editors, and specifically how women AMV creators are treated. Misandry isn't an institutionalised reality, but certainly if individuals have problems they see with gendered discrimination against male editors, I'd like to hear about it. Misogyny, however, is an institutionalised reality, and therefore in my personal experience, it is quite pervasive in fandom spaces. Including in AMV communities.

I know that there are other fandoms which are worse. I know that the gaming communities are... well... I would describe what I've seen in them and heard about them to be horrific and toxic. The comments on Kotaku, as an example, are so bad, I can't even read the site anymore without risking head injury from the desire to headdesk repeatedly. However, just because AMV communities have substantially fewer issues than other fandom areas, this doesn't mean that the incidents we do have are unimportant and unworthy of attention. It's a matter of degree, but that's all. I mean, when I get catcalled in a drive-by situation, it's a lot less of a threat than some guy following me down a dark street while catcalling me (something which actually happened to me while I was living near Piedmont Park in ATL). The first seems minor in comparison, but it's still an incident which is important to discuss and to do something about.

I'm grateful that we don't have issues which are as serious as other fandoms, but that doesn't give us a magic fandom waiver to ignore the issues we do have.

On your other observations, I find those very interesting although I am not sure I have much to add. Otohiko and I have discussed gender/sexism/feminism in a Russian context before, and although I have no wish to speak for him, I think I remember him saying some stuff which would explain why some folks on Russian sites, like AMVNews, might see your style/genre choices as fitting into a gender paradigm. I don't see your stuff as particularly gendered, I just see it as stuff I genuinely like. Of course, I'm a woman, so an essentialist might say that of course I'd like your girl-oriented videos. I'd think the essentialist was being silly, of course.

Serious commentary ended, I find this sort of relevant:

[JaddziaDax]

In general my comments were directed to specifically AMVGuide's list.
I only decided to comment on it because it was brought up.

As for the Russian communities, yeah I'm sure that there are some major cultural differences there, I do notice "my audience" tends to be mostly comprised of females though, particularly very young females.

[AMVGuide]

@JaddziaDax: Yeah, I pretty much expected someone to bring up that point. But since the thread is about Misogyny, not Misandry, I thought I'd leave it out. Actually that's a lie only brought up because Kionon mentioned Misandry just now But still, I should have stated objectification of both Men and Women. And you know, mistakes like that are exactly the type of unconscious stuff that I think starts to surface in threads like this. We do treat different genders differently-- whether we think about it or not. Now, in our current reality, I think most people would agree objectification of women is far more prevalent; thus where we should focus our efforts most

Now, since I think it's a related topic, I set up a new poll on AMVGuide:



I tried to keep the options as balanced as possible, but you can input your own answer too.
Consider sharing it with other AMVers (Use the Sharing Buttons below the poll). Results will be posted... TBA.

[JaddziaDax]

Now, in our current reality, I think most people would agree objectification of women is far more prevalent; thus where we should focus our efforts most

When I see the reactions of Twilight fans, One Direction (Bieber, Jonas, pick your young male popstar and insert here) fans, and screaming fangirls in other places *ahem* I beg to differ. It seems to me that it's becoming fairly even these days, AND we are giving the message that it's okay for women to act this way but not men.

I also don't think you can talk about one without mentioning the other.

[AMVGuide]

Yeah, I think you're right: Objectification is becoming more balanced.

And you know, that brings me to the idea of Overcompensation.
If we focus too much on the girls, (or ladies, gals, women, or whatever term you'd like to focus on), we'll forget about the boys (or gentlemen, guys, men etc); where things become unbalanced again; not to miss those that don't ascribe to one side. So it's good you bring this up

Kionon! make a Misandry thread! pronto!!!
naww j/k, but still that brings me back to a question I brought up earlier:
What does it mean to be Gender-Neutral? Should we try to be Gender-Neutral all the time?

[Kionon]

Well, this may seem counter-intuitive at first, but feminist theory asserts that unhelpful frameworks are still because of patriarchy. If we don't transform the current system entirely, then we may indeed end up simply shifting the discrimination. I'll note, however, that this hasn't happened yet. We do have folks who believe this and articulate this, even if it isn't true. Kitsuner's article on the "distress of the privileged" touched on this.

And do you really want me to try to answer those questions, because I'm warning you, if I do, it's going to be a wall of text.

[AMVGuide]

hmm... my question about gender-neutrality is mostly meant to be thought-provoking, and rhetorical-- as that could become an entire thesis in itself.
But if I can get a man to imagine --for 15 minutes-- what it would be like to live their life as a woman; and vice versa; and everything in between...
...then I think that can make all the difference in the world. It could very well be the start of the transformation of the system you speak of.

[ngsilver]

I have refrained from posting up until now as I honestly don't think I have anything to add to the current discussion or the main question that has been asked multiple times in this thread. It has been asked to come forward and share instances where you have seen Misogyny crop up within the AMV community. TBH, I cannot think of any such instances. But, perhaps it's best to come out and actually say such. Now, I can see this as opening myself up to opposition on my statement, especially considering the reputation I have as being a hentai editor (and a host for such videos) as well as being a man. It would be safe to say that is also a reason for me keeping quiet, as TBH, I prefer to keep myself out of arguments dealing with things like politics and social issues. But, I just can't keep quiet.

So yes, I personally can not think of any such instances that I have seen or been a part of. Now, obviously, it has to have happened at least as far as I can tell. The reasoning I have for thinking this is something had to have push Kio into starting this discussion and there is an obvious quote from another community member in the first post that does lead to that assumption. However, I have no clue what thread that post came from. Despite being a part of this community, I don't really pay attention to most threads, and beyond what few threads and topics I pay attention to and the few interactions I have with people on #amv and in IM or Skype and the very limited in person interactions, I pretty much keep to myself and generally prefer to be on the outside looking in. I'm like this most of the time in a vast majority the social circles I'm part of. So to me, my own visibility into the community and interactions are quite limited, and as such I just haven't seen it.

Could I have overlooked something? Sure. Could I have forgotten something? Very likely, after all I do have a very crappy memory. So, take from it what you will.