Project Editor Exit Survey

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Shin-AMV
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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by Shin-AMV » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:33 pm

1. I prefer the individual experience over the team thing. For me, group projects are hard to stay motivated on.

2. I hated the bracket system. The elimination system has kind of a built in drop protection so all videos need to stay fairly competive with everyone else still in. The Bracket system gave some teams free rounds and some of the top tier teams ended up getting eliminated early cause they went up against another strong team.

3. Recycled themes are boring. Some of the themes this round were way overused and I'm tired of seeing them like the seven deadly sins. Also some of the themes needed to be tailored a bit more or narrowed down so they feel more unique like the Shipper's Paradise theme was basically "make a romance video" instead of really invoking ships and OTPs if you get what I mean. I really liked the anime/manga and avant garde themes though.

4. Doesn't really matter to me.

5. I don't mind that they're blind as long as they're revealed at the end of the contest. It helps that they don't get bombarded by flames during the contest but they need to be held accountable or available for scrutiny at the end of the contest at least. I like detailed comments, but even just a sentence or two would suffice for me.

6. Fairly well organized for the most part.

7. Judges need deadlines so we have a better idea of when the results will be in.

8. It'd be fun to have a toilet bowl round were eliminated participants can participate and have a chance to get back into the contest.

9. Not that I can think of.

10. For the majority of them no. The only one I would like to see again is the anime/manga theme.
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Radical_Yue
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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by Radical_Yue » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:05 pm

Everyone else has already covered the majority of the other problems so this is all I really have to say anything about. The only major problem I really saw was with the themes.

The themes were rather esoteric and not really left open to interpretation. The way I've always viewed it, a theme should be something straight forward that is either an automatic 20 points or 0. You either did it or you didn't. But due to the nature of the themes, half the time the editors are trying for X while the judges are expecting Y. Personally, I don't care about rankings in the end but it always irks me a bit when you see a fantastic video get destroyed because it didn't follow the theme the way that the judges interpreted it. Then again, the fact that the judging always seems to be geared a certain way may just be with the judges and not the themes. Who's to say? :P Speaking of the judges, in my personal opinion, it's more fun to have them be public so you know what you're up against. If I would have known MimS was a judge I would not have opted to work with a song using large amounts of american slang that he wouldn't really get, leading to him not understand the video. lol
(Mirko really covered this well with his final opinion on Nuerogaaaaaaay or whatever the hell the boys named their video. The whole having to give more points to a video that technically follows the theme better but lacks in the editing department etc...)

The fact that you brought back so many themes from old Project Editors really hurt the competition. It's not that they're bad themes but they're themes that were developed for a single person to edit. Really, the only theme that you could edit as an actual team effort properly was the AMV Hell one. Everything else was just attempting to make a normal video but cram multiple people into the experience. While this can be done, this can lead to every single video becoming the same. I mean this in the sense that you're just going to get a bunch of standard MEPs with a single song where the anime/editor switch every 30 seconds, loosely following the general idea but without any real focus.

The final round, in my opinion, would have been better without a random theme but more of a "Each team make a video that represents your individual styles and your epic teamwork. Go wild!" Instead of the two teams facing off to show which was the strongest group of editors, it turned into who could follow the theme the best and not turn it into a giant mess.

But overall, the team experience is fun! Just difficult to work with. I wouldn't say individual is better than team or team is better than individual. They're different beasts entirely. I plan on doing my own style of team battle later this year so maybe we can compare notes afterwards and try and come up with something fun for the future :D

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irriadin
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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by irriadin » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:27 pm

Radical_Yue wrote:Everyone else has already covered the majority of the other problems so this is all I really have to say anything about. The only major problem I really saw was with the themes.

The themes were rather esoteric and not really left open to interpretation. The way I've always viewed it, a theme should be something straight forward that is either an automatic 20 points or 0. You either did it or you didn't. But due to the nature of the themes, half the time the editors are trying for X while the judges are expecting Y. Personally, I don't care about rankings in the end but it always irks me a bit when you see a fantastic video get destroyed because it didn't follow the theme the way that the judges interpreted it. Then again, the fact that the judging always seems to be geared a certain way may just be with the judges and not the themes. Who's to say? :P Speaking of the judges, in my personal opinion, it's more fun to have them be public so you know what you're up against. If I would have known MimS was a judge I would not have opted to work with a song using large amounts of american slang that he wouldn't really get, leading to him not understand the video. lol
(Mirko really covered this well with his final opinion on Nuerogaaaaaaay or whatever the hell the boys named their video. The whole having to give more points to a video that technically follows the theme better but lacks in the editing department etc...)

The fact that you brought back so many themes from old Project Editors really hurt the competition. It's not that they're bad themes but they're themes that were developed for a single person to edit. Really, the only theme that you could edit as an actual team effort properly was the AMV Hell one. Everything else was just attempting to make a normal video but cram multiple people into the experience. While this can be done, this can lead to every single video becoming the same. I mean this in the sense that you're just going to get a bunch of standard MEPs with a single song where the anime/editor switch every 30 seconds, loosely following the general idea but without any real focus.

The final round, in my opinion, would have been better without a random theme but more of a "Each team make a video that represents your individual styles and your epic teamwork. Go wild!" Instead of the two teams facing off to show which was the strongest group of editors, it turned into who could follow the theme the best and not turn it into a giant mess.

But overall, the team experience is fun! Just difficult to work with. I wouldn't say individual is better than team or team is better than individual. They're different beasts entirely. I plan on doing my own style of team battle later this year so maybe we can compare notes afterwards and try and come up with something fun for the future :D
I agree with this sentiment. I felt confined by the themes rather than encouraged to express my creativity... I'd much prefer a theme that gives a small degree of guidance, but leaves plenty of room for interesting interpretations. Yue's right in that this contest seems far more about "how well did you meet the theme" than "how awesome is your interpretation and your video?" Having everything boil down to meeting a theme makes the entire experience very robotic and not very exciting... anyone can follow directions. The amount of skill, technique and passion you bring doesn't matter as much as making sure all checkboxes are marked off. That's discouraging to me. I don't feel as though I'm being challenged.

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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by Animated » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:00 pm

Yue has a point. Basically, I always agree with Yue on certain things, so she gets a huge "x2" from me :P

Themes apart, what I have to add: Background checks on editors and having a 32-teams contest. Here's a fact: 5 out of 16 themes didn't send a video, a percentage of 31.25%. You can only imagine the frustration of the winning teams when they found out they were struggling against an opponent that was never there. Those 5 teams claimed slots that other skilled teams with enough potential to edit could use. So, what I meant with the Background Check term: Our first opponents were the Zephyrian Team. Those 3 guys were youtube editors, and only one of them had 3 or 4 posts on the .org. They weren't answering my pm's and their registration post was the only thing we saw from them. Why not having them on hold and see if another worthy team appears instead of them? OK, I know it's unfair to not enter a team because they are unfamiliar with the .org, and that's why I suggest to increase the number of teams.

Also, I'm stronly against the bracket system. DQs will cause less pain this way. And...
CodeZTM wrote:5) What is your ideal type of judge you would like to see in Project Editor
The one that takes the time to give a honest comment on the video, and fast. And by fast, I mean in 1 or 2 days. Why would it take more than a week to judge 4 videos? And what I saw from certain judges was not even judging, it was just ratings! A whole week just to see 12s and a 16s without knowing the judge's thoughts! I understand that judges have many more things to do in their personal lives than criticizing AMVs, but THAT's why they were chosen. To be stand-by till the day the deadline was over. I believe all of them visit this forum on a daily basis, so why not spare some minutes and also write a thing or two about the videos? This thing is what angered me the most, so I'm up for being a critic next time.
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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:39 pm

irriadin wrote:anyone can follow directions.
As a judge from last year's Summer PoE, I'll say right here: they sure as hell can't.
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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by mirkosp » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:26 pm

Animated wrote:The one that takes the time to give a honest comment on the video, and fast. And by fast, I mean in 1 or 2 days. Why would it take more than a week to judge 4 videos? And what I saw from certain judges was not even judging, it was just ratings! A whole week just to see 12s and a 16s without knowing the judge's thoughts! I understand that judges have many more things to do in their personal lives than criticizing AMVs, but THAT's why they were chosen. To be stand-by till the day the deadline was over. I believe all of them visit this forum on a daily basis, so why not spare some minutes and also write a thing or two about the videos? This thing is what angered me the most, so I'm up for being a critic next time.
I always did my best to have my votes sent in within 24-48 hours by the time Code's PM reached me, and did succeed in all rounds bar round 2 (I was quite busy and actually away in the weekend). I managed to get in the votes within the 72 hours mark anyway that round. So I can personally say I've been quite timely, even with the comments in the last 2 rounds. In the first 2 rounds I skipped on thorough comments on everything because I wouldn't have managed to send votes soon enough by my own standards, so I just wrote short comments on videos which I thought needed explanation on votes (mostly videos which I rated somewhat poorly on theme, but I really wanted to let my reaction to "It Started With A Bang" known :dino: ).
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Nya-chan Production
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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by Nya-chan Production » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:52 pm

1) As far as the "team" experience goes, would you like to see another project editor (not season 3) utilize teamwork, or should it remain an individual experience?
I am more for the individual experience, I think teamwork doesn't really suit this kind of a contest...

2) This was the first project editor to utilize a "bracket" system instead of the usual "elimination" system. Of the two, which did you most prefer, and which would you like to see utilized more often?
I'd like to use the elimination system more, mainly because it is more dynamic towards the drops. Sure, it lets people advance because they "only" submitted something - but at least there's a fair advantage and reward for submitting a video.

3) Themes are of vital important to the contest, as they are the backbone of the system. What is your opinion on the themes this season? What kind of themes would you like to see more of? If you could recommend a theme for season 3 and beyond, what would it be?
Less recycling, please. As for the recommendation - I don't really know, but I'd be either for something fairly vague-ish and explaining judges it's so, or for really strict themes (a song from a certain group, using some genre of anime from some list/site, or so) - clearly defined, simply. Anything in between with lack of cooperation with contestants or judges is just asking for trouble. I stress this out mainly because I tend to think in a really different way than many people and apparently it pretty much killed my chances in at least two PoEs (along with last-minute editing, I admit).
Also I would prefer less points for theme. Really, I think 20 is kinda overdoing it and that 10 is enough. But I guess this depends on the contest, so... :>

4) Time restrictions and deadlines are always a concern, especially due to multiple time zones across the world. If given a chance, would you prefer a softer deadline system, allowing for users to upload to me after the "deadline", in observance of time differences, if a similar consideration is given to users in the same time zone as myself?
Softer, no. But I liked your "you have to upload until midnight, but I check videos when I get up *winkwink* system - it lets you not stress about something like upload rate or stuff. That should be utilized more~ <3

5) What is your ideal type of judge you would like to see in Project Editor? Blind/Public? One that leaves comments and takes time, or one that gets results more quickly but has no commentary?
Public, that gets results with commentary quickly. Some deadline would be nice, so we know when we can expect the results.
But really, I think that proper feedback is what this contest is missing the most. I know they are tough to write, but at least two or three sentences is simply a must. To explain why you gave less in technical aspect, where was the lack of sync (for you) that deserved less points, etc. Unfortunately, it seems that the modern Twitter/FB status times (and the small fields in GDocs that look restricting) learned people to stop writing.
It might seem useless, but I have learned that pretty much ANYONE entering a contest of this type is happy for any and all feedback, the more precise the better. So, please, try to throw it in. Needless to say, if you write it down, it helps you reason out your point choices to yourself too!

6) What is something in this contest that you thought was best executed this year?
Mhmmm... usual standards, extras around.

7) What is something in this contest that you thought was worst executed this year?
Themes and their meaning, some lack of proper control over judges, no team check before competition and thus large amount of drops that affected the bracket system.
But for me, the main issue was the teamwork. I mean, I got paired with Kimberly, it was a great experience and an awesome ride - but as I work pretty much 9 - 18 and we were 6 hours apart, it was REALLY tough to edit something together to make it really work and not to be just two connected parts. For the R2 we managed to get together for some proper editing on the very last day only!
And only then we (or more precisely me, Kimberly never said anything about this to me) learn that other teams don't really edit together. Sure, the rules only say: "Meaning that individuals cannot enter the contest, and AMVs must be a collaborative effort," but really, isn't the approach "One editor edits it, other members beta it and recommend changes and that's a collaborative effort" a bit overdoing it? Nothing against (well, not really, stupid phrases), but it seems like a pretty big disadvantage to me if we take it that everyone has to edit at least a bit. Sure, our fault that it hasn't occured to us, but still...
Maybe I would like a late explanation of this rule and the next time to be a bit more precise about this thing in team contests.

8) Is there a particular rule/restriction that you would like to see added to future contests?
Not really.

9) Is there a particular rule/restriction that you would like to see removed from future contests?
Not really.

10) Would you like to see old themes recycled in the future (assuming enough time is given between the contests they are used in)?
Not really. Or at most some 10% of the contest themes (so 1-2 in bracket system, 1 in usual elimination system)

11) Anything not covered above? Explain it to me here!
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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by Kimberly » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:26 pm

Nya-chan Production wrote: 7) What is something in this contest that you thought was worst executed this year?
...And only then we (or more precisely me, Kimberly never said anything about this to me) learn that other teams don't really edit together. Sure, the rules only say: "Meaning that individuals cannot enter the contest, and AMVs must be a collaborative effort," but really, isn't the approach "One editor edits it, other members beta it and recommend changes and that's a collaborative effort" a bit overdoing it? Nothing against (well, not really, stupid phrases), but it seems like a pretty big disadvantage to me if we take it that everyone has to edit at least a bit. Sure, our fault that it hasn't occured to us, but still...
Okay, I'm not sure if you're for or against every team member editing part of a video. If you're for it, then:

I completely agree. If you're going to do another Tag Team Tourney in the future, Code, then you've got to be more strict. It's a TEAM tournament for a reason, not "do one round and I'll do the other". If there are 5 members in a team, then all 5 members better damn collaborate together. I found it bullshit to hear some people talk about how only they're doing the video, or only 3 members of a team are doing it. Sure, some people have their reasons, but really? People can't even make 10 seconds? That's still putting in your part, even if it's small.

Honestly, I think you should put in a rule where only member can only miss a round, every round. If the whole group is not in the next one, they should be eliminated. If they're in a team of two, and a member has to miss a round, then both members have to be participating in the next round.

In a collaborative tournament, I'm sure there is a section to judge on teamwork? If there's only one person making the whole video, how is that any fair?
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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by xPauChan » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:09 am

xPauChan wrote:5) I do like the idea of blind judging
Since I am not sure whether blind judging means anonymous judges or anonymous contenstants i wanted to clarify I would opt for anonymous contenstants.

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Re: Project Editor Exit Survey

Post by MimS » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:23 am

I understand it can seels unfair that not a whole team does each round but when there are luke 4 out of 6 members, we can't call that "cheating". Actually I consider it a pretty good way to deal with everybody's nerves. Though I do admit there should be some rule controlling this in some way ^^
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