the bailout

[BasharOfTheAges]

The gross inequity of income problem can be solved - it would require rather communistic acts of government (or ones that would be labeled as such at the very least) or heavy, reaching uses of the real intent behind second amendment rights (replacing "the goverment" with "the super-wealthy" as the targets).

We need to face that shit like this can and will happen as a direct result of our free market economy. The rich will become richer unless the government does something to dissuade people from becoming super-rich. High taxes just push people out of the country and piss off the ones lining the pockets of congress. Nobody has a solution that won't anger a lot of people or the majority of people with money and power. Something needs to give. - I'd honestly like to see that posed as a debate question (assuming someone could pose such a statement in the form of a question well enough) and have it pressed until both candidates could give a clear answer.

[Sukunai]

"By your logic, all banks should go away. How foolish of...THE ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD to use them for hundreds of years. All those on Wall Street and anyone with a business degree or in banking sure is an idiot...right?

I give up.

You fundamentally don't understand how the economy, lending or credit works and honestly, people misunderstanding things are one of the causes why the economy goes into the shitter. You may not contribute directly, but your lack of knowledge and hell, complete ignorance of the system leads to the uninformed opinions and misinformation.

The economy works (or fails) b/c of people's knowledge and perception of it. You sir, are not helping.

GOOD DAY"

I guess this is a bad time to mention the piece of paper I have on my wall mentioning my business education. Probably don't want to look my business plan either.

Probably also a bad time to mention the BANKS made this problem we are discussing.

Is this a good time to ask you how old you truly are? what life experiences do you actually have? I'm 46, I've been married 22 years. I'm the head of the household and I have a 14 year old son.

And I have no debt. Pretty cool eh. More than I can say for the US government (I don't want to make you think I think the Canadian government is any better by the way).

I know precisely how credit works. You borrow money you want from someone else. You use it to pay for something. You owe the lender that sum plus something more. If you don't pay it back soon you get to keep on paying the lender. And the more you borrow, the more you get to pay out without actually paying off the debt.
Did I miss anything?

[The Origonal Head Hunter]

I have nothing to contribute to this discussion, as I could hardly care, but I just gotta say... Sukunai, on behalf of everyone, let me just say I'm so goddamn proud of your life and accomplishments within it.

[dwchang]

I guess this is a bad time to mention the piece of paper I have on my wall mentioning my business education. Probably don't want to look my business plan either.

Probably also a bad time to mention the BANKS made this problem we are discussing.

Is this a good time to ask you how old you truly are? what life experiences do you actually have? I'm 46, I've been married 22 years. I'm the head of the household and I have a 14 year old son.

And I have no debt. Pretty cool eh. More than I can say for the US government (I don't want to make you think I think the Canadian government is any better by the way).

I know precisely how credit works. You borrow money you want from someone else. You use it to pay for something. You owe the lender that sum plus something more. If you don't pay it back soon you get to keep on paying the lender. And the more you borrow, the more you get to pay out without actually paying off the debt.
Did I miss anything?

OH IS THIS AN EPEEN MEASURING CONTEST! LET ME JOIN IN!

Your assumptions are incorrect. I am 28 years old and a Ph. D Candidate in the top ranked Computer Engineering College in the country (EGO++) and also have no debt nor have I ever had any major debt in my lifetime. In fact, I have the highest possible credit score possible according to government reports. I'm surprised folks view 'having no debt' as this huge accomplishment.

I graduated from the 2nd highest ranked Electrical Engineering college for my undergrad and have a Masters degree already (ZOMG I HAVE PIECES OF PAPER ON MY WALL TOO). I worked three years in the industry at a little company named AMD as a Product Development Engineer making microprocessors that many people on these very forums use on a daily basis to make their videos. I'm willing to bet that job earned quite a bit of money in comparison and many here would view it as 'cool' or 'respectable.'

In relation to the discussion in hand, I have taken advanced economics classes during my graduate coursework, as well as finance, accounting and venture capitalism classes and my father has his Ph. D in Economics (and has taught at various Universities) and my Mother has her Masters in Accounting. I also invest money in the stock market with what profits I did save while working and do some day trading and have a 401k that I watch closely. In short, I know my shit on the economy and business so don't lecture me.

Did I miss anything in the EPEEN measuring? Can we actually get back to the discussion instead of you questioning my credibility or you trying to boast?

Back on topic, just because you have a degree doesn't mean shit. Clearly you don't know how things work b/c earlier you mentioned you have three credit cards. You are a hypocrite b/c credit cards work b/c you *DING DING DING* are borrowing from the credit card company to buy something that you did not have the cash on hand to buy. In admitting this, you more or less conceded that you too have borrowed money.

Did you also pay for your car or college IN CASH? If you took out loans for those then you'd also be a hypocrite. I guess everyone who doesn't pay in cash is an idiot by your logic. Guess a lot less kids should go to college eh?

Again, if you think RESPONSIBLE ADULTS borrowing money for a mortgage to buy a house is stupid then well...you're stupid. You seem to understanding the simple concept of lending and yet don't understand the actual principles behind it and why people do it. DWP has (multiple times) tried to explain it and yet you persist. Then again, you're still renting at 46 and most folks would view that as a bad investment. It's the stupidest investment you could ever make. You actually own NOTHING and have NOTHING to show for paying your rent. It's why people BUY HOUSES.

Let's do some simple math:
Let's approximate that your rent is roughly $800 /month (probably more)

Let's say you have rented for 24 years (since you were 22).

24 years * 12 months a year * $800 a month = $230,400

That is how much money you have NOT put into your own equity or into a house and WASTED on rent.

You could have bought a house EASILY with this money. If you took out a mortgage, paid it back at roughly the same rate as your rent, you would now own your house and have actual equity. That's why my parents did, that's what my coworkers do and that's what just about every responsible adult does in just about any country in the World. What idiots they must all be. I guess we should all be renting and owning NOTHING.

How stupid of us!

As for the actual causes of these things, many folks have already discussed the causes, but you seem to have missed those and just keep ranting about how awesome you are...

[downwithpants]

stay on topic people (i know this is the off-topic forum...)

High taxes just push people out of the country and piss off the ones lining the pockets of congress.

well it also dissuades your citizens from competing for a higher paying job.

I know precisely how credit works. You borrow money you want from someone else. You use it to pay for something. You owe the lender that sum plus something more. If you don't pay it back soon you get to keep on paying the lender. And the more you borrow, the more you get to pay out without actually paying off the debt.
Did I miss anything?

There's more to moneylending than that. it multiplies your output by allowing you to invest in capital that makes your production more efficient. hopefully if you've taken economics, you know what this means. this is why industrialized nations encourage their banks to loan money.

[jasper-isis]

I know precisely how credit works. You borrow money you want from someone else. You use it to pay for something. You owe the lender that sum plus something more. If you don't pay it back soon you get to keep on paying the lender. And the more you borrow, the more you get to pay out without actually paying off the debt.
Did I miss anything?

There's more to moneylending than that. it multiplies your output by allowing you to invest in capital that makes your production more efficient. hopefully if you've taken economics, you know what this means. this is why industrialized nations encourage their banks to loan money.

Also, let's not completely vilify the concept of borrowing here. There's more point to it than just "omg I want to consume moar but I don't have enough money so let me take out a loan." It's called investment - the idea that putting a bit a money towards some goal today would pay off (and not only in terms of $$) sometime in the future. People borrow privately in order to invest in their lives, so that they can leave (hopefully) a better world for their children. Others borrow money because they need capital to start projects that could really help to improve lives on a greater scale. Without borrowing, a lot of projects would never get off the ground, and there'd be a whole lot less progress in the world today.

[Sukunai]

I guess this is a bad time to mention the piece of paper I have on my wall mentioning my business education. Probably don't want to look my business plan either.

Probably also a bad time to mention the BANKS made this problem we are discussing.

Is this a good time to ask you how old you truly are? what life experiences do you actually have? I'm 46, I've been married 22 years. I'm the head of the household and I have a 14 year old son.

And I have no debt. Pretty cool eh. More than I can say for the US government (I don't want to make you think I think the Canadian government is any better by the way).

I know precisely how credit works. You borrow money you want from someone else. You use it to pay for something. You owe the lender that sum plus something more. If you don't pay it back soon you get to keep on paying the lender. And the more you borrow, the more you get to pay out without actually paying off the debt.
Did I miss anything?

OH IS THIS AN EPEEN MEASURING CONTEST! LET ME JOIN IN!

Your assumptions are incorrect. I am 28 years old and a Ph. D Candidate in the top ranked Computer Engineering College in the country (EGO++) and also have no debt nor have I ever had any major debt in my lifetime. In fact, I have the highest possible credit score possible according to government reports. I'm surprised folks view 'having no debt' as this huge accomplishment.

I graduated from the 2nd highest ranked Electrical Engineering college for my undergrad and have a Masters degree already (ZOMG I HAVE PIECES OF PAPER ON MY WALL TOO). I worked three years in the industry at a little company named AMD as a Product Development Engineer making microprocessors that many people on these very forums use on a daily basis to make their videos. I'm willing to bet that job earned quite a bit of money in comparison and many here would view it as 'cool' or 'respectable.'

In relation to the discussion in hand, I have taken advanced economics classes during my graduate coursework, as well as finance, accounting and venture capitalism classes and my father has his Ph. D in Economics (and has taught at various Universities) and my Mother has her Masters in Accounting. I also invest money in the stock market with what profits I did save while working and do some day trading and have a 401k that I watch closely. In short, I know my shit on the economy and business so don't lecture me.

Did I miss anything in the EPEEN measuring? Can we actually get back to the discussion instead of you questioning my credibility or you trying to boast?

Back on topic, just because you have a degree doesn't mean shit. Clearly you don't know how things work b/c earlier you mentioned you have three credit cards. You are a hypocrite b/c credit cards work b/c you *DING DING DING* are borrowing from the credit card company to buy something that you did not have the cash on hand to buy. In admitting this, you more or less conceded that you too have borrowed money.

Did you also pay for your car or college IN CASH? If you took out loans for those then you'd also be a hypocrite. I guess everyone who doesn't pay in cash is an idiot by your logic. Guess a lot less kids should go to college eh?

Again, if you think RESPONSIBLE ADULTS borrowing money for a mortgage to buy a house is stupid then well...you're stupid. You seem to understanding the simple concept of lending and yet don't understand the actual principles behind it and why people do it. DWP has (multiple times) tried to explain it and yet you persist. Then again, you're still renting at 46 and most folks would view that as a bad investment. It's the stupidest investment you could ever make. You actually own NOTHING and have NOTHING to show for paying your rent. It's why people BUY HOUSES.

Let's do some simple math:
Let's approximate that your rent is roughly $800 /month (probably more)

Let's say you have rented for 24 years (since you were 22).

24 years * 12 months a year * $800 a month = $230,400

That is how much money you have NOT put into your own equity or into a house and WASTED on rent.

You could have bought a house EASILY with this money. If you took out a mortgage, paid it back at roughly the same rate as your rent, you would now own your house and have actual equity. That's why my parents did, that's what my coworkers do and that's what just about every responsible adult does in just about any country in the World. What idiots they must all be. I guess we should all be renting and owning NOTHING.

How stupid of us!

As for the actual causes of these things, many folks have already discussed the causes, but you seem to have missed those and just keep ranting about how awesome you are...

Reactionary little monkey aren't you.
"I am 28 years old and a Ph. D Candidate in the top ranked Computer Engineering College in the country (EGO++)" The 28 part was relevant to my comment, how was your phd relevant to business? I mean, I suppose you can build a fine computer, but would I want you running my woodworking business? My brother is the editor of a large newspaper and was the TOP ranked, student in his subject, not just a student at a top ranked College. He's a great writer, but he knows less about computer engineering than my 14 year old.

So what have we established there? Being an expert in an unrelated field is not worth much in the related field. You haven't established a damn thing about knowing much about business haven't you. But if my computer starts acting odd I guess you would be a good candidate to ask for a solution.

Personal debt is not the same as business debt for instance. It was hard to grasp initially, but businesses don't buy merchandise with cash, they order inventory and pay generally 2-3 months after. Businesses are not individuals though.

You keep on about responsible adults, sadly, I see very few of them in my life. Most be a lot rosier where you live.

I have 3 credit cards simply because they offered them too me. 2 I have yet to ever use. They make adequate insurance against sudden surprises in life. Fortunately being Canadian means one of those surprises isn't going to be health care related. The thing with credit cards though, is most people load them up, and never empty them. Me, I only use it as a means to order goods online. I never use them in face to face transactions. Thus I am NOT the same as everyone else. I don't pay interest, because there is never any balance owing left on them to create interest owing. Credit cards actually don't much care for prompt speedy clients, they don't make anything from them.

Oh if this seems like a dick contest to you, you might as well also just call me gay and mention a well known WW2 dictator while you are at it. This is a debate, and you're not very good at it.

I'll be renting when I am 56 66 76 and with luck 86 and I will surpass my father's age in the process.
Yes paying rent seems like a waste of cash to a lot of people.
No, not every landlord is abusive or part of a corporation that won't let me put a nail in the wall.
I also don't need to pay for upkeep. If my toilet stops working, it's not my problem. I don't cut the grass, and if building needs a new roof I don't suddenly need a lot of cash out of nowhere.

Equity is fine if you plan to need it. I've been retired since 93 though, and frankly I don't think I will be in any danger of being economically ruined by being labeled a senior citizen. I won't be leaving a family home behind when I pass on, but my father didn't leave me one either and I am doing ok. I'm sure my son will be a fine enough man and get by on his own choices. I just hope he has a planet worth owning when he's my age. Indications are he might not.

Good luck on your investments by the way. I am glad you will be safe because you are so clever. But why didn't you tell them what they were doing wrong before all those clueless people lost their shirts? After all, your having made some investments clearly makes you soooo much smarter than they were. They could have used your wisdom at places like Wachovia.

And meanwhile, this large number of people you like to parade around, all those smart people, I suppose they were all not part of the bunch that recently lost their homes.

You sure sound like you know a lot of really smart people.

[dwchang]

This is a debate, and you're not very good at it.

lolwut?

It's amusing that you first resort to trying to do an EPEEN measuring contest and then you try to completely disregard everything with such a sweeping comment (or returning to the same things you keep repeating for three replies).

How has anything you've said recently actually rebut any of my statements on mortgages, student loans, business loans, etc? Things that many people do on a regular basis and pay back responsibly? Is this all just magic to you? Is everyone just stupid and you're smart? Just because you choose not to do something (b/c you don't understand it), doesn't mean it's wrong and the stupid way to do things. How has anything you've said rebut anything about how for hundreds of years, people have responsibility borrowed money and improved their lives? How has anything you've said rebut jasper's comment about personal investment and how without loans, quite a bit of growth and development would not occur? That includes small businesses. How has anything you've said rebutted dwp's comments about how the rich will be the only homeowners and thus the only landlords in a country with no credit?

I'll answer all those questions, you haven't and thus are not very good at debating.

For the record, I was on the debate team for many years (ego++) and by technical standpoints (i.e. what they grade on in debates), I've stuck to the topics on hand, rebutted and counter rebutted while you've gone off topic, relied on personal attacks (in your defense, I have also resorted to the same in response) and disregarded attacks to your argument multiple times. In a debate, you'd be losing.

A BUNCH OF NONSENSE

You don't seem to have read anything myself (did you not read anything about my business qualifications?), jasper or dwp have written so I don't know why I'm even trying anymore.

...and with that, I won't. If people want to remain so ignorant about such things and live in their smart little world then that's their prerogative. Just don't call the rest of us stupid for living in the real world and working with it responsibly.

[JaddziaDax]

Sukunai is Sarah Palin in disguise?


[MOD22: I'm locking this...]