Evangelion: Classic or Overrated?

[the Black Monarch]

I guess the main reason I started this discussion is because you mentioned that Shinji doesn't really grow. That is to fundamentally destroy what Eva is about. RCB or not, the show is about Shinji's experiences and growth.

Not necessarily. It's about his experiences, certainly, but growth? I think the show is more about invisible pink unicorns than about Shinji's growth. Actually, Shinji's lack of growth is one of the main reasons why people don't like Eva. I see Eva as being about the four central characters, their relationships with each other, and their attempts to fight their own inner demons. Not about growth. I base this on my observations of both the events of the show and what the characters say, but I don't think that either of us can prove to the other what the show is about, so this is something of a dead-end discussion.

I'd like to know exactly how those High Tide decks work...

Crush of Wurms 6GGG
Sorcery
Put three 6/6 green Wurm tokens into play.
Flashback 9GGG (if it's in your graveyard, you can cast it for its flashback cost and remove it from the game)

That 12 mana is a lot easier to come by in a Wake deck.

[UncleMilo]

I thought I would try to deal with some of what's been talked about.

THE EVA UNITS:

It is clearly stated in the TV show that the EVA units have a computer-brain just like the MAGI computers. Ritsuko says how her mother imprinted aspects of her mind into the MAGI Computer. The EVAs were also supposed to be imprints. EVA 00 is an imprint of Ritsuko's mother, EVA 01 is an imprint of Shinji's mother and EVA 02 is an imprints of Asuka's mother.

Moving on... we know that Asuka's mother went insane... and that the insanity happened around the time the imprinting was done (which is a fact we can see in the tv series)... so we can assume that the insanity was caused by the imprinting. This would explain why Asuka's mother kept thinking of the doll as Asuka. None the less, Asuka's mother killed herself (and the doll, under the delusion it was Asuka) and Asuka's father went on to marry someone else.

Shinji's mother was the only exception to the case. Shinji's mother was actually absorbed into the EVA...so rather than being just an imprint, the soul of Shinji's mother is actually contained in the EVA.

This is why Shinji had such a high compatability with the unit on his very first connection

This is why Gendo places priority on Unit 01 over Unit 02

This is why when the Unit goes Bersek, it's instinct is the basic animal desire to protect the child

This is why the unit is capable of minor functioning without a plug (such as when it defended Shinji in episode 1)

There is clear evidence in the TV series that ONLY Unit 01 contains an actual soul and not just a computer imprint. Most of what I have said here can easily be defended by events in the TV series... it's just a matter of paying attention. Nothing that I have said here is information I took from any "fan guide" or anything else... it's all based on the information they give you in the TV show...you just need to connect the dots.


Moving on...

Rei most certainly does have emotions. Anyone who claims that Rei is emotionless simply doesn't understand Rei. Rei is simply repressed...

Shinji suffers from depression... he has issues of self image (and no surprise given his father) and so he finds no value... but being depressed and being emotionally repressed are two very different things.

Rei is not depressed... she simply has little experience with emotion and really doesn't understand how people "work", but Rei shows plenty of emotion in the show... it's just repressed.

I mean... in one of the early episodes she slaps Shinji out of anger and she holds on to Gendo's glasses out of love and she blushes when Shinji says she'd be a good mother... and she smiles when she talks to Gendo...

these are all emotional signs. Just because she is MUCH MUCH more repressed in her display of emotions than anyone else on the show doesn't mean she is emotionless.



Lastly...

Anyone who doesn't see the way Shinji grows in the TV show is really missing the whole damn show. I mean... all through the show he is growing as a person... he finds more and more confidence in himself, he is able to make friends and most importantly at the end of the show, he is able to find value in himself as a whole... not just with the crutch of being an EVA pilot... but a true sense of value in his total being.


The show is about Shinji, plain and simple. The rest of the material is nothing more than the surface story... a story that helps us understand who Shinji is... and it has an entertaining story that keeps our interest, but this whole series is about Shinji. This is something a lot of people misunderstand... because they think the show is centered on the surface story, but it isn't.

The last 2 episodes make it clear what the story is truly about.



You can e-mail me to discuss this (at unclemilo@yahoo.com) or send me a private message if you're interested in talking about EVA. I just don't come to the forums enough to discuss this show here on the board.

-Uncle Milo

[AtomicWeezleman]

I thought I would try to deal with some of what's been talked about.

Moving on...

Rei most certainly does have emotions. Anyone who claims that Rei is emotionless simply doesn't understand Rei. Rei is simply repressed...

Shinji suffers from depression... he has issues of self image (and no surprise given his father) and so he finds no value... but being depressed and being emotionally repressed are two very different things.

Rei is not depressed... she simply has little experience with emotion and really doesn't understand how people "work", but Rei shows plenty of emotion in the show... it's just repressed.

I mean... in one of the early episodes she slaps Shinji out of anger and she holds on to Gendo's glasses out of love and she blushes when Shinji says she'd be a good mother... and she smiles when she talks to Gendo...

these are all emotional signs. Just because she is MUCH MUCH more repressed in her display of emotions than anyone else on the show doesn't mean she is emotionless.
-Uncle Milo

i totaly agree, Rei was never taught how to express feelings, she grew up in a box room lab somewhere under nerv, but she still has them, it s what defines a person, and whether artificial or real, the ability to show feelings is a human trait and rei is very much human, a clone, but still human. (once heard that reis bodie were pulled from lilith, heard it on the EOE directors comentary i think)

Lastly...

Anyone who doesn't see the way Shinji grows in the TV show is really missing the whole damn show. I mean... all through the show he is growing as a person... he finds more and more confidence in himself, he is able to make friends and most importantly at the end of the show, he is able to find value in himself as a whole... not just with the crutch of being an EVA pilot... but a true sense of value in his total being.


The show is about Shinji, plain and simple. The rest of the material is nothing more than the surface story... a story that helps us understand who Shinji is... and it has an entertaining story that keeps our interest, but this whole series is about Shinji. This is something a lot of people misunderstand... because they think the show is centered on the surface story, but it isn't.

The last 2 episodes make it clear what the story is truly about.

to true, there are many facets to the evangelion series, shinji growing is one of them, in the Human Creation episode, (i forget which number that is, but can always remember the names strange eh??) at the begining, he display his emotion more, as for the last two episodes, Shinji finaly finds that there is a place for him in this world, and if that isn't about growth, the i dont know what is

[Metro]

It is clearly stated in the TV show that the EVA units have a computer-brain just like the MAGI computers.

ehh? where does it say they have a computer-brain?

Shinji's mother was the only exception to the case. Shinji's mother was actually absorbed into the EVA...so rather than being just an imprint, the soul of Shinji's mother is actually contained in the EVA.

Shinji's mother was NOT the only exception. Sohryu Kyouko Zeppelin sufford a similar fate during her contact experiment in Germany. However, Kyouko's body was salvaged but she was left mentally unstable, possibly due to not having a soul

There is clear evidence in the TV series that ONLY Unit 01 contains an actual soul and not just a computer imprint.

Asuka's mother's soul is in Unit 02. The Red Cross book says

Sohryu Kyouko Zeppelin
The real mother of Sohryu Asuka Langley. She suffered mental breakdown due to an accident during an experiment, and thereafter lived in a dream world until committing suicide. Her soul appears to have been used in the core of Eva-02.

And of course in episode 24 when Kaoru takes control of Unit 02 he says

Kaoru: Eva is made of the same body as me.
Because I am also born from Adam.
When the unit does not have a soul, I can unite.
The soul of this unit is shutting itself up now.

add to this the fact that the eva's produce an AT Field and an AT Field requires a soul

This is why Gendo places priority on Unit 01 over Unit 02

Also, don't forget that Unit-01 is the only Eva made from Lilith. Gendo wants to use unit-01 to bring about his version of Complementation

as for the rest of your statement I agree ^_^

[dwchang]

Uncle Milo...THANK YOU!!!! ARGH!!!!

[dwchang]

the ability to show feelings is a human trait and rei is very much human, a clone, but still human.

I think you bring up an excellent point (whicH I thought I did earlier, but guess not). I think Rei learning to express her emotions, even though she is a clone, is Anno saying something about people (or even "non-people") who are repressed can still come back from it...as Rei did. It's actually quite nice.

[dwchang]

Shinji's mother was the only exception to the case. Shinji's mother was actually absorbed into the EVA...so rather than being just an imprint, the soul of Shinji's mother is actually contained in the EVA.

Shinji's mother was NOT the only exception. Sohryu Kyouko Zeppelin sufford a similar fate during her contact experiment in Germany. However, Kyouko's body was salvaged but she was left mentally unstable, possibly due to not having a soul

There is clear evidence in the TV series that ONLY Unit 01 contains an actual soul and not just a computer imprint.

Asuka's mother's soul is in Unit 02. The Red Cross book says

Sohryu Kyouko Zeppelin
The real mother of Sohryu Asuka Langley. She suffered mental breakdown due to an accident during an experiment, and thereafter lived in a dream world until committing suicide. Her soul appears to have been used in the core of Eva-02.

And of course in episode 24 when Kaoru takes control of Unit 02 he says

Kaoru: Eva is made of the same body as me.
Because I am also born from Adam.
When the unit does not have a soul, I can unite.
The soul of this unit is shutting itself up now.

add to this the fact that the eva's produce an AT Field and an AT Field requires a soul

You know, having a three hour meeting doesn't help...or maybe it did since I don't have to type all that.

Thanks for the "assist" Metro, I would've responded with the exact same statement about Eva's having AT fields which require a soul. So...stole the words right out of my mouth .

Regardless, to the entire discussion: the biggest thing I have a problem is is when people say Shinji doesn't grow or that the show is about robots (even stupider). As Milo said, Episodes 25 & 26 (which people hate, but I like a lot) definitely demonstrates this. In fact, it's debateable if Anno truly wanted it this way. A way that focused on the characters and very little about the story.

[the Black Monarch]

It is clearly stated in the TV show that the EVA units have a computer-brain just like the MAGI computers.

No it isn't.

so we can assume that the insanity was caused by the imprinting.

In Eva, it's dangerous to assume ANYTHING.

Shinji's mother was the only exception to the case. Shinji's mother was actually absorbed into the EVA...

That was never said.

This is why when the Unit goes Berserk, it's instinct is the basic animal desire to protect the child

And when Units 00 and 02 go berserk, they place the children in danger. Besides, Yui is nowhere near as animal-like as what we see in Episode 19.

There is clear evidence in the TV series that ONLY Unit 01 contains an actual soul and not just a computer imprint.

No there isn't.

Anyone who doesn't see the way Shinji grows in the TV show is really missing the whole damn show. I mean... all through the show he is growing as a person... he finds more and more confidence in himself, he is able to make friends and most importantly at the end of the show, he is able to find value in himself as a whole... not just with the crutch of being an EVA pilot... but a true sense of value in his total being. The show is about Shinji, plain and simple. The rest of the material is nothing more than the surface story... a story that helps us understand who Shinji is... and it has an entertaining story that keeps our interest, but this whole series is about Shinji.

I can't prove that you're wrong, but saying that nothing is important outside of Shinji's part of the story is very narrow-minded. Shinji is the most important of the characters, yes, but the show isn't exclusively about him; my next comment explains why I say this.

The last 2 episodes make it clear what the story is truly about.

The last 2 episodes don't make anything clear except that (a) the Eva project had run out of time and money, and (b) Anno had major issues. Episode 25 divides its time evenly between the four central characters, and Episode 26 explicitly states that it focuses on Shinji simply because they don't have time to give all of the characters the same treatment.

[UncleMilo]

Black Monarch - What color is the sky where you live?

All the things I have said are IN THE SHOW. I have no interest in discussing EVA with someone who doesn't even pay attention to the show. A show like this requires thought, intelligence, and the capacity to make leaps of judgement based on the evidence.

==============================================

As for this Red Cross book... I have never read it. I don't know if it is a trustworthy source of information and so I can't respond to anything that comes from it.

All my comments come from the evidence that exists in the show. I'm not interested in any source of information other than the show. I will certainly admit that I may be wrong... but the things people are saying from this book don't seem to hold much water.

To my knowledge... ALL THE EVAs (Units 00, 01 and 02) are made from Lillith. Lillith was in the spot where NERV was built long before NERV... long before Adam caused 2nd Impact.

The implication I have taken from the show is that Lillith was the only Angel they had available to make genetic copies from.

Furthermore... units 00, 01 and 02 all take their designs from the descriptions of the children of Lillith as described in the Khaballa... which is certainly not concrete evidence, but certainly indicates to me that this is just a clever way to further explain that Units 00 - 02 are all made from Lillith (and therefore, her "children")


I will also admit that I don't know how the EVAs generate the AT field... I don't know if they REQUIRE the pilots... or if it is because of their angelic nature... but I KNOW that the only EVA that is more than an imprint is Unit 01... because it has the soul of Yui in it...

Nothing in the TV show ever indicated that EVA 02 had anything special beyond an imprint. In the show, Asuka is NEVER able to generate the kind of power that Shinji does... and I don't believe it is because of anything special about Shinji...


As for the scene in the movie with Asuka....
1) I believe Asuka's rush of power is because of Asuka. She senses her mother's imprint and this inspires her. It is her own inspiration that powers up the EVA... because it was Asuka's depression that lowered her ability to control her own EVA

2) Unlike Shinji's EVA... Asuka's EVA still shuts down once it runs out of power and it DOES NOTHING.

3) There is no imagry (such as a spirit of Asuka's mother as was shown once or twice with EVA 01) which indicates ANYTHING that gives me even a shadow of a doubt that Unit 02 contains nothing more than an imprint of Asuka's mother.



Again... I base all my opinions from evidence from the shows. While I certainly don't suggest I have all the answers, I will stand behind my views, because I have found evidence in the show to support my views.

I will certainly inquire about this Red Cross book and see what information I can find... but unless it comes from Anno himself, I won't give it much merrit. I know that many in GAINAX didn't know what the hell the show was about and that there was internal conflict in the studio.



That's all I plan to say for now.

-Uncle Milo

[AtomicWeezleman]

i agree and disagree

Black Monarch - What color is the sky where you live?
-Uncle Milo

hooray, you tell him how it is

All the things I have said are IN THE SHOW. I have no interest in discussing EVA with someone who doesn't even pay attention to the show. A show like this requires thought, intelligence, and the capacity to make leaps of judgement based on the evidence.


The implication I have taken from the show is that Lillith was the only Angel they had available to make genetic copies from.

Furthermore... units 00, 01 and 02 all take their designs from the descriptions of the children of Lillith as described in the Khaballa... which is certainly not concrete evidence, but certainly indicates to me that this is just a clever way to further explain that Units 00 - 02 are all made from Lillith (and therefore, her "children")

-Uncle Milo

erm, sorry, i disagree there, if they were all made from lilith, gendo wouldn't mind if unit 1 was lost, since he could use any of the three eva's to bring about the instrumentality of mankind

I will also admit that I don't know how the EVAs generate the AT field... I don't know if they REQUIRE the pilots... or if it is because of their angelic nature... but I KNOW that the only EVA that is more than an imprint is Unit 01... because it has the soul of Yui in it...

Nothing in the TV show ever indicated that EVA 02 had anything special beyond an imprint. In the show, Asuka is NEVER able to generate the kind of power that Shinji does... and I don't believe it is because of anything special about Shinji...
-Uncle Milo

an AT field is the light of the soul, it stop overs from hurting you, it is a barrier that must never be crossed, this is stated by kwarou, who also does say that the soul of unit 2 is hiding, this leads me to believe that unit 2 has a soul, if not, he would seem a bit of a idiot for making such a statement.

As for the scene in the movie with Asuka....
1) I believe Asuka's rush of power is because of Asuka. She senses her mother's imprint and this inspires her. It is her own inspiration that powers up the EVA... because it was Asuka's depression that lowered her ability to control her own EVA

2) Unlike Shinji's EVA... Asuka's EVA still shuts down once it runs out of power and it DOES NOTHING.

3) There is no imagry (such as a spirit of Asuka's mother as was shown once or twice with EVA 01) which indicates ANYTHING that gives me even a shadow of a doubt that Unit 02 contains nothing more than an imprint of Asuka's mother.

-Uncle Milo

during asuka last battle, she sees her mother inside the eva, much like shinji saw his mother when he was trapped inside the angel in that episode with the scary sphere (i cant remember episode number right now, still half asleep), also asuka's eva began to berserk after being torn apart, this requires the soul of the eva, as there was no power to the eva at this point. seeing as how eva 01 moves without power, due to having a soul, this must be the case for unit 02 aswell