Evangelion: Classic or Overrated?

[Propyro]

On the subject of Magic, Mirari's Wake kicks ass.

OFF TOPIC
Unfortunately, I have not played since my Sophmore year in college (about 3 years ago) and am unfamiliar with the card. What set was it part of? My guess is it's a green card and probably creates some sort of 1/1 tokens (I guess I somewhat remember it since "X wake" seems familiar).

I for one always loved the Shivan Dragon (although not that good in tourneys...although I hear it is now). There's just something about a 5/5 Flying creature with Fire-breathing. By the same token I loved Serra Angels as well.

As for tourney level decks, I usually went with Sleigh (sp?), Green or White weenie and Red/Green. I always hated playing against blue counter decks so rarely played them although I should've since they're just SO good. That doesn't even include when Blue had those mad combos with Tolarian Academy or Urk! can't remember...that blue card from Fallen Empires.

yea, i tried to get into magic, but i lived/still live in a neigborhood that, that just wont work in. Maybe if i didn't live in a dead-end retirement pit i may have been able to find some people to play with and liked that game. But that jsut wasn't the case, ohwe ll it's still a cool game, and i don't mind watching people play ... so i guess i'll jsut have to settle for that.

[Propyro]

I know a lot of people (including myself) don't like the scene where Shinji masturbates to a comatose Asuka, but it was put there for a reason. It definitely illustrates that Shinji has reached the lowest of the low (in fact, I think that was his quote).

So thats what had happened ... I downloaded EoE and it wasn't of the greatest video quality, so when i saw that scene i was wondering what the hell just happened. It did cross my mind that he just jerked off ... but i never thought that shinji was the kind of guy who'd do that. Then again i never thought that shinji would choke Asuka either ... oh well thats the price i pay for "stealing" anime...

[Jiima]

Man... Internet Hiatus sucks... I've been without an internet connection for over a week now... anyhow... Just to let everyone know, I didn't take the time to read the entire thread, just the last couple of posts.

So... on to topic... Classic or Overrated? This is a commonly recurring matter that developes around Evangelion. Either you love it or...... you hate it to the very pits of hell. (yeah there are some middle grounds, but generally speaking) It may be overrated, but the two terms technically have nothing to do with one another. I know I'm gonna die for this comment, but IMHO The Wizard of Oz is overrated, yet it's a classic. So it's generally up to the general public as to what becomes a classic and up to individual viewers as to what is overrated. Related, but not.

No growth in Shinji? Err...the show is about Shinji growing up. At the same time, you are correct that Shinji was more fucked up at the beginning of EoE. This is because Shinji reached his lowest point after killing the only person who loved him (or so he though), Kawrou (sp). I know a lot of people (including myself) don't like the scene where Shinji masturbates to a comatose Asuka, but it was put there for a reason. It definitely illustrates that Shinji has reached the lowest of the low (in fact, I think that was his quote).

Yeah he's reached to lowest of the low, but at the same time it shows that Shinji has matured. Think about it. Would the Shinji we met at the beginning of NGE have even thought about looking at a naked girl, let alone masturbating with her right in front of him? It shows, "Hey, I'm not a kid anymore." While it's disturbing, I think that that adds to the element of Ano being angry with the world. Think about all that Shinji has been exposed to in the past, what is it, year? I think that Ano was also trying to show how the world corrupts, turning a naive and innocent (sort of) Shinji into a lower than low scum, perverted by the ways of the world. Does that make any sense to anyone else? Keep in mind also that these are the opinions of a viewer. Only one man knows the true answer, and even then truth may not be shared in its entirety.

I am glad that it challenged my preconceptions. However, I hafta admit I would love to put it on my shelf and never watch it again.

Yeah it challenges you. Not only your preconceptions, such as giant robot genre, etc. but also the way you perceive life or the world. If not a total change in your life, you have to admit that it did make the way you look at things a bit different. You may not watch it anytime soon, but in about... oh 10-15 years, if you still have it and are still into that sort of stuff, pick it back up and rewatch it. With your new life experiences, and current events, you may view it entirely different. If something's going on in your life you may pick up on or relate to something TOTALLY different than that first time. You see what I'm saying? It's one of those anime's that's so honest that it can have an effect on reality and, likewise, reality can effect the way you watch it.

[the Black Monarch]

The Red Cross Book isn't worth a puddle of warm snot. The same goes for any other material which states that Rei is emotionless. I laughed the whole time I read that book because of all the mistakes and contradictions. It was written by people who "worked on" Evangelion, which means they could have been Studio Gainax's janitors or the lackeys who brough Anno his pills. REI DOES NOT LACK EMOTIONS DAMMIT!

Mirari's Wake 3GW
Enchantment (Rare, Judgement)
Creatures you control have +1/+1
Whenever you tap a land for mana, add one mana to your mana pool of any type that land produced.
The land drank power from the Mirari as though it had thirsted forever
I could look up the artist, but I'm too lazy.

Basically, it's Glorious Anthem plus a one-way Mana Flare rolled into one card.

As for tourney level decks, I usually went with Sleigh (sp?), Green or White weenie and Red/Green. I always hated playing against blue counter decks so rarely played them although I should've since they're just SO good. That doesn't even include when Blue had those mad combos with Tolarian Academy or Urk! can't remember...that blue card from Fallen Empires.

(a) It's spelled Sligh. (b) Fallen Empires? Are you sure? I don't really consider Tidal Influence or Homarid Spawning Bed to be mad combo material...

[dwchang]

The Red Cross Book isn't worth a puddle of warm snot. The same goes for any other material which states that Rei is emotionless. I laughed the whole time I read that book because of all the mistakes and contradictions. It was written by people who "worked on" Evangelion, which means they could have been Studio Gainax's janitors or the lackeys who brough Anno his pills. REI DOES NOT LACK EMOTIONS DAMMIT!

Well like I said in the previous post, if you require more evidence....there isn't any more. The Red Cross contains the answers. Everyone always wanted to know what they were thinking...this is it.

I know this'll come across wrong, but I don't think you have any right to say that the Red Cross Book is wrong or has mistakes/contraditions...Did you write or create Eva? No...Anno did and well...when Gainax releases a book to explain things...I think that means it's the definitive answers. They did make the show afterall. Think what you want, but this is the truth. No matter how much you argue it, there are right answer and these were provided by Gainax/Anno (the obvious source to ask). And no, it wasn't the janitor...

As for emotionless, I don't think they ever meant to imply that. The show is also a progression/growth of Rei's character into well...a human being. She chooses Shinji b/c she develops her own being and has emotions...thus rejecting to be Gendo's puppet. I think you are misinterpretting when they say "emotionless." I think that's b/c she is in the beginning, but later grows. I mean it is a description of her character at the beginning.

Mirari's Wake 3GW
Enchantment (Rare, Judgement)
Creatures you control have +1/+1
Whenever you tap a land for mana, add one mana to your mana pool of any type that land produced.
The land drank power from the Mirari as though it had thirsted forever
I could look up the artist, but I'm too lazy.

Basically, it's Glorious Anthem plus a one-way Mana Flare rolled into one card.

(a) It's spelled Sligh. (b) Fallen Empires? Are you sure? I don't really consider Tidal Influence or Homarid Spawning Bed to be mad combo material...

Well you gotta realize that I haven't played in a LONG time. The card does look bad ass though. I mean a mana Flare and Crusade in one card wow!

No I'm fairly sure it was a Fallen Empires card. Again, realize this was over 3 years ago and the combo was banned after like a month. It involved "Stroke of Genius" and stroking for the entire deck. The Fallen Empire card some how provided mana. (shrug).

[Lyrs]

my god! this is really a treasure trove! so many interpretations and opinions! Sounds like an essay oppurtunity.

/end

[the Black Monarch]

Well like I said in the previous post, if you require more evidence....there isn't any more. The Red Cross contains the answers. Everyone always wanted to know what they were thinking...this is it.

I know this'll come across wrong, but I don't think you have any right to say that the Red Cross Book is wrong or has mistakes/contraditions...Did you write or create Eva? No...Anno did and well...when Gainax releases a book to explain things...I think that means it's the definitive answers. They did make the show afterall. Think what you want, but this is the truth. No matter how much you argue it, there are right answer and these were provided by Gainax/Anno (the obvious source to ask). And no, it wasn't the janitor...

Anno himself didn't write the book. We don't know who did. This is like some guy at Paramount claiming that Jean-Luc Picard is a metaphor for Jesus in the Star Trek chronology, when the truth is that the guys at Paramount don't know jack shit and only TNG's creators have the authority to say stuff like that. Actually, Gene Roddenberry contradicted himself a couple times when he talked about Star Trek... I'm glad that Braga, Moore, and the rest of the TNG guys were consistent.

Well you gotta realize that I haven't played in a LONG time. The card does look bad ass though. I mean a mana Flare and Crusade in one card wow!

It's better than that. The Crusade-like ability affects all your creatures and only your creatures, not just the white ones on both sides, and the Mana Flare is one-way! And it's cheaper than those two cards put together. It has a nice home in one of my Sliver decks

No I'm fairly sure it was a Fallen Empires card. Again, realize this was over 3 years ago and the combo was banned after like a month. It involved "Stroke of Genius" and stroking for the entire deck. The Fallen Empire card some how provided mana. (shrug).

Umm... the key ingredients in Academy decks were Academy (no shit), Stroke of Genius, Mind over Matter, Dream Halls, Lotus Petal, Time Spiral, and that one enchantment where you return it to your hand and chuck 4 cards from your hand to draw 3 cards. None of those are from Fallen Empires. If I remember correctly, the only blue FE card that could generate mana was High Tide, and it was generally regarded as crap (although I think it's kinda cool)

[dwchang]

Anno himself didn't write the book. We don't know who did. This is like some guy at Paramount claiming that Jean-Luc Picard is a metaphor for Jesus in the Star Trek chronology, when the truth is that the guys at Paramount don't know jack shit and only TNG's creators have the authority to say stuff like that. Actually, Gene Roddenberry contradicted himself a couple times when he talked about Star Trek... I'm glad that Braga, Moore, and the rest of the TNG guys were consistent.

Yeah, I agree we don't know if it's Anno or another staffer (my guess is multiple staffers), but I still believe it since A) a lot of evidence in the show points to these things and B) they are also in the book written by the staff. A implies B implies C...A implies C (not a mathematical proof, but inference). Although this doesn't *really* help, but it should be noted that Studio Gainax is a fairly closely knit (or at least was during Eva) company, so I honestly think that they wouldn't just randomly create a book and put in "facts." You also gotta realize that Eva is Anno's brainchild and he cared about it quite a bit. I don't think he'd want something that isn't "right" to be given out at the movie as THE source.

Also (not that this really matters), but I think these things are pretty widely accepted which would infer that other people came to the same conclusions. Now to say that the majority is right (b/c some times it's not), but when you add up the fact a lot of ppl figured it out this way, there's a book from the staff that says that, etc. it equates to answers to me. It's enough for me, obviously not for you, so not much more can be said. I do suggest watching the show/movies again with these in mind though. (shrug) What does everyone else think of these questions (namely the souls in Evas and stuff above)?

It's better than that. The Crusade-like ability affects all your creatures and only your creatures, not just the white ones on both sides, and the Mana Flare is one-way! And it's cheaper than those two cards put together. It has a nice home in one of my Sliver decks

Yeah of course, it's just the first card I could remember that was like it. Actually something like that is just WAY too broken. One-way crusade and manaflare...wow!

Umm... the key ingredients in Academy decks were Academy (no shit), Stroke of Genius, Mind over Matter, Dream Halls, Lotus Petal, Time Spiral, and that one enchantment where you return it to your hand and chuck 4 cards from your hand to draw 3 cards. None of those are from Fallen Empires. If I remember correctly, the only blue FE card that could generate mana was High Tide, and it was generally regarded as crap (although I think it's kinda cool)

Yeah I remember the Academy decks, but that got banned in like less than a month IIRC. The deck I am referring to IS High Tide (thanks for reminding me). It's the same principle (in that you make them draw their deck). I don't think ppl thought it was crap since I saw quite a few people successfully play them at state and regionals (in which I got my ass kicked). I hate combos .

[the Black Monarch]

It is known that Anno was NOT among the authors of the RCB. It is also known that Rei can feel anger (eps 5 & 16), sadness (22 or 23, not sure which), embarassment (15 & 17), happiness (6), fear, blah blah blah blah blah, when the RCB says she doesn't have emotions. This, to me, is like saying "Asuka doesn't yell at anyone" or "Shinji loves his father". It's a steaming pile of bullcrap.

The funny thing about Wake is that it's most commonly used in creatureless decks! The one-way Mana Flare effect is THAT powerful. Throw on the Glorious Anthem, and your Crush of Wurms now produces three 7/7 Wurm tokens instead of three 6/6 Wurm tokens. Very nice against those 6/6 Wurm tokens created via Roar of the Wurm in Blue/Green Madness decks. Haha, my Wurm is bigger than your Wurm... er... you have no idea what I'm talking about... never mind.

If you want to use Stroke of Genius and High Tide to kill someone, you'd need like 30 Islands in play... maybe just 20 with two Tides in hand... sorry, but I've never seen a tourney game end with more than 20 lands in play on one side, especially during the days of first-turn-kill Academy decks. "Are you absolutely certain of your facts, Miss Morgan?"

[dwchang]

It is known that Anno was NOT among the authors of the RCB. It is also known that Rei can feel anger (eps 5 & 16), sadness (22 or 23, not sure which), embarassment (15 & 17), happiness (6), fear, blah blah blah blah blah, when the RCB says she doesn't have emotions. This, to me, is like saying "Asuka doesn't yell at anyone" or "Shinji loves his father". It's a steaming pile of bullcrap.

I think what they mean to say is that she's not supposed to. As you said yourself, Rei also develops (like the other characters). In this case, she learns to feel emotions through Shinji's actions. I think it's actually quite touching that a "mindless" clone learns to have emotions. I honestly think they were trying to say something about human beings and regardless of how you act you are still capable of such beautiful things.

As for the RCB, I don't think it matters if Anno wrote it or not. As I said in the previous post, I think Anno cared about Eva enough that he wouldn't just let something like that be passed out at the movie. Like I said, Gainax is a fairly closely knit company and I don't think a group could just randomly go write this book, publish it and then distribute it without Anno knowing about it. This is his "baby," I'm fairly sure he'd care enough that if something claimed to have the answers, they'd be the right ones. Like I said, if you need more evidence, there isn't any. This is as close as we'll ever get (unless you were to sit down with Hideaki Anno).

I guess the main reason I started this discussion is because you mentioned that Shinji doesn't really grow. That is to fundamentally destroy what Eva is about. RCB or not, the show is about Shinji's experiences and growth. Now of course others develop as well, but Shinji is the main character and in a way Anno himself (won't go into details about his family life and whatnot). Things like if Eva's have the souls of the pilot's mother are (even I'll admit) trivial in the big scheme of what Eva is about. Things like that are just the "story" part which (surprisingly) isn't what's important. When I learned those things about the show, I just thought it was cool. It didn't really change my perception of the show, just enhanced the plot.

The funny thing about Wake is that it's most commonly used in creatureless decks! The one-way Mana Flare effect is THAT powerful. Throw on the Glorious Anthem, and your Crush of Wurms now produces three 7/7 Wurm tokens instead of three 6/6 Wurm tokens. Very nice against those 6/6 Wurm tokens created via Roar of the Wurm in Blue/Green Madness decks. Haha, my Wurm is bigger than your Wurm... er... you have no idea what I'm talking about... never mind.

If you want to use Stroke of Genius and High Tide to kill someone, you'd need like 30 Islands in play... maybe just 20 with two Tides in hand... sorry, but I've never seen a tourney game end with more than 20 lands in play on one side, especially during the days of first-turn-kill Academy decks. "Are you absolutely certain of your facts, Miss Morgan?"

Well like I said, I haven't played in 3+ years, so I have no idea what those cards do or recent strategies. I do know that High Tide was a fairly popular deck once Academy was banned. I don't think they needed 20 islands or anything excessive. I'm fairly sure there had to be something that let them untap lands and whatnot. I apologize that I don't know the details, but A) it was a long time ago and B) I never played it (only against it). I know it did fairly well since I know quite a few players that qualified for the Pro Tours with it (in Illinois, Kentucky and Indiana...since I lived around there and attended those).