What is this? [Evangelion Girlfriend of Steel?]

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:57 pm

PS Just so we don't get into an unneccesary argument here -

yes, there is a meaning for the term OBJECTIVE ART that I perfectly accept

OBJECTIVE ART is used to describe art which can turn water into ice and shatter rocks just by virtue of its' sheer art-ness.

I doubt this has anything to do with Eva, so I'll just step out.

Onideus_Mad_Hatter · Post by **Onideus_Mad_Hatter** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:10 pm

Otohiko wrote:This just proves my point regarding the whole subjectivity issue.

I for one don't really share either the point of view regarding eva nor the notion of 'authors intentions being clear' a mark of greatness.

Although I'm not saying that Eva is pinnacle of greatness, or that Anno didn't get at times carried away by their own emotions.

But, there is room for thought there, which is what attracts me. Ambiguity attracts me a lot more than straightforwardness, which gives Eva large bonus points in my department.

There's a difference between incoherency of plot, killing the exposition in the first 5 minutes, and telling a good story without giving it all away. Most "Americanized" movies, tv shows, cartoons, etc work by killing the exposition right off the bat so that really there isn't much reason to even continue watching cause you know what's going to happen and the reason behind every last little thing. Most anime series that I've seen work by having set "rules" to their universe, it's just they don't explain every last one of them in the first 5 minutes, they leave in a lot of mystery and intrigue. Not so much that YOUR left with trying to fill in holes with your imagination, but enough that you want to keep watching so YOU can FIND OUT by watching. NGE does do that like most anime series, but the problem is that the closer you get to the end of the series, the more the plot just falls apart completely.

That and the fact that I don't believe that art is 'created' or the fact that the author's message should even have anything to do with its' interpretation by others.

Interpretation is usually what people do when they're looking to project their feelings and beliefs in order to try and understand themselves better. It's sorta like looking in a mirror and then studying what you look like. Which is fine, but most artists that I'm aware of do not create art for that purpose. And using art for that purpose...yeah, not necesarily the best way of going about it.

But to note: I can perfectly accept your stance on Eva is a valid one. I'm not arguing you're wrong in your view of that, just saying that I don't believe there's anything in there that should be objective.

Take enough psych courses and you'll probably see my points more clearly.

Savia · Post by **Savia** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 5:08 pm

Out of curiosity, Hatter, what would you name as 'good' art under your definition?

HeartbreakerByZep · Post by **HeartbreakerByZep** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:51 pm

I'd just like to throw in my 2 cents, disregard it if you'd like.

In my humble opinion, Evangelion is the greatest work of art I've ever seen or experienced. Most of my favorite art is art that comes from the soul, mind, and violent ambition of the artist. Neil Young is one of my all time favorite artists, and all of his music is pretty much just an extension of himself. I don't really use it to gain a perspective of the artist though, I use it to see myself and understand that a bit better.

If there's nothing to ponder at the end of the series, it's just a fade away piece. Some series have truly terrible drop-off endings where nothing is resolved and everything is up to the imagination. (Sakura Diaries for example) For Evangelion, this is not so. Evangelion provides a clear and powerful conclusion, providing direct resolution to all of the plot-building points, and providing with a perfect ending suitable to fit the type of series that Evangelion was. Personally, I'd like if more stories would have the guts to end on a daring note. You don't have to guess what went on in the series, everything in the plot, except for episodes 25, 26, and Sincerely Yours (2nd Half of EoE) is explained pretty simply and easily to be comprehendable. Now within that there are many secrets that where not solved. Most, if not all, of these secrets within the deep workings of the series are not required to understand the series as a whole, neither its plot nor its theme. Many of these things are simply keys to understanding the deeper works of the series, and do little to affect the main points of the series, providing deeper understanding of specific events or characters. Enough with the explination, I try to get to the point. It isn't like the secrets aren't there, it isn't completely guess-work. Understanding this stuff involves a ton of speculation and theory, but nearly all of what you need is there in the series for you to divulge, you just have to put it together. I can understand that if people don't like to put things together like that they would dislike it, but the series is straightforward enough so that you don't have to put much together.

The ending is both vague and direct. It is more vague than it is direct, but a very many literature resolutions are the same way. It allows the viewer to speculate on their own what happens in the future of the characters, but it still presented the conclusion to the plot of the series, there was no need for anything afterthat really.

So that was hardly more than a description, oh well.

Cyanna · Post by **Cyanna** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:01 pm

Basically...as with any art form...I think we are all in the "I may not know art but I know what I like" boat. Some people hate Eva because they think it's half-assed and shallow. Some people like it because they feel they can percieve it on a deeper level.

It's like looking at a painting by Salvador Dali. Personally I hate his work and I just think he had a warped mind and threw stuff together. I just don't get it. But there are so many who see meaning in his art and go absolutely nuts over it. I'm not going to tell them that they are wrong for finding pleasure in something I can't get into. All power to them if they can see something I cannot. Even if it's a small pleasure....it's still one more thing to enjoy in their life.

Jebadia · Post by **Jebadia** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:08 pm

Cyanna wrote:
It's like looking at a painting by Salvador Dali.

and by warped, do you mean the fact that he played around with his poop?

Onideus_Mad_Hatter · Post by **Onideus_Mad_Hatter** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:34 pm

Savia wrote:Out of curiosity, Hatter, what would you name as 'good' art under your definition?

Hrmmm...do you mean in general or specific? Generally speaking, there are lots of different ways to guage "good" art. Take painting for example. If an artist has the ability to create a piece of art work that is so photo realisitic that your average Joe can't see that it's actually a painting and mistakes it for just another photograph, I consider that to be the truest most pure form of absolute skill in artistry. When I look at art I tend to look at the mastery of skill it took to create that art. In an anime series I not only look at the animation itself (not just things like color quality and drawing style, but also the types of animation used, like head and background motion lip synching) but I also look at the stories. Plot development, character development, setting, etc, etc.

In most animes I've seen, they actually don't do much in the way of character development. Often times it's like the character is one way, something happens that could change the characters personality, the character eventually comes to some kind of resolve or understanding of the event but then rather than truly being changed by it they kinda just go back to the way they were before.

It's funny because a lot of people don't have very nice things to say about series like DBZ or they claim it's all just fighting and so forth, but DBZ actually has some of THE BEST character development I've ever seen in ANY anime series. Where as in a series like NGE, the character development is just absolutely pathetic. I cannot even begin to imagine a more static, flat character than Shinji. Despite EVERYTHING that happens to him in the series he never really truly changes in any way. One of the most absolutely annoying things about that series was in those last two episodes every 5 minutes he would like suddenly have an epiphany, understand things in a completely new light...but then he'd just go right back to thinking the way he was and it was like he just forgot or something.

Personally I would have liked to see more character development in NGE. Like with Rei, boy they were workin on it for most of the series, she was all wound up in a tight lil box and they kept having little glimpses where she would sneak a peek outside, but her character/personality never really changed in the series despite all that happened to her. Unless you wanna count her suddenly and randomly out of the blue coming to the conclusion that she was replacable and that suicide was perfectly acceptable...gosh why didn't they think of that in the first episode, they didn't even need Shinji, just clone another Rei!

But let's talk about another series that had good character development, let's talk about Card Captor Sakura. In the begining, Li starts off pretty much hating Sakura, seeing her only as his rival, but then through the course of the series, given everything that happens, he winds up falling deeply in love with her. You see, THAT is one of the most important aspects of a good story, character development. And NGE...it just doesn't have it. In fact, it has SO LITTLE character development that most people after watching it either just flat out hate it, or they start trying to project aspects of themselves into the characters to compensate for what it lacks. And if that's what the artist had intended to do, hey, I'd say it's "good art" in that respect. But uh, as I understand it the guy was just psychotic and projected that same personality into each of the characters. And uh, if you're psychotic, it's hard to see things from other perspectives. If you could, you probably wouldn't be psychotic. That's kind of the trick. That's why they don't normally hire crazy people to make movies and such...I'm just sayin. If you're suicidal when you're making something...it will all just be a simple reflection of that.

Another aspect of what I consider "good" art is being able to incorporate more than one theme and having interconnected themes within the piece. You watch a series like Kiddy Grade and there are so many different themes going on that you pretty much have to watch it two or three times to really absorb it all in. Most times you can guage how complex an anime is theme wise when someone asks you what it's about. If it takes you more than 3 paragraphs or you just don't know where to begin to describe it, it's probably good as far as that's concerned. Most people that I've seen can sum up NGE in one sentence. Usually something along the lines of "Psychotic teens battle theological monsters in a twisted religous inspired end game!"

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:42 pm

Onideus_Mad_Hatter wrote:
Savia wrote:Out of curiosity, Hatter, what would you name as 'good' art under your definition?
Hrmmm...do you mean in general or specific? Generally speaking, there are lots of different ways to guage "good" art. Take painting for example. If an artist has the ability to create a piece of art work that is so photo realisitic that your average Joe can't see that it's actually a painting and mistakes it for just another photograph, I consider that to be the truest most pure form of absolute skill in artistry.

Point taken.

In that case, again, I think that further reinforces the idea of subjective judgement I've been advocating.

If you ask me, and a few other people whom I consider experts in the field,

Mastery is not Art.

Not damn close. Yea, if you're incompetent artist, you shouldn't be there. But if you are only competent, it's not enough.

I find the idea of art being perfection proposterous. I find the idea of art being a technical mastery proposterous too.

But, suit yourself.

As for me, instead of watching a perfectionist technician put on impressive, flashy, impossible displays, I'd much, much rather watch a true artist do nothing or almost nothing, superbly. A single stroke that says everything is better than a million that say nothing.

That's, really, why I love the two concluding eps of Evangelion. Limited animation used to great effect. You don't have to agree, but I think I'm not the only one who sees them this way.

Onideus_Mad_Hatter · Post by **Onideus_Mad_Hatter** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:55 pm

HeartbreakerByZep wrote:I'd just like to throw in my 2 cents, disregard it if you'd like.

In my humble opinion, Evangelion is the greatest work of art I've ever seen or experienced. Most of my favorite art is art that comes from the soul, mind, and violent ambition of the artist. Neil Young is one of my all time favorite artists, and all of his music is pretty much just an extension of himself. I don't really use it to gain a perspective of the artist though, I use it to see myself and understand that a bit better.

There's a difference between enjoying a piece of art work for the skill and perfection of it and enjoying a piece of art work because it "touches" you in some way.

One of my absolute favorite books is Anne McCaffrey's Dragon Singer, however it's not my favorite book because it's some stunning piece of literature, it's basically my favorite book because I associate it with things that were going on in my life at the time. When I reread that book, it's almost like traveling back in time and reliving part of my life. Most people, why they enjoy certain forms of art, do not realize that, that is often times the reason why. It's all about association of things that are pleasurable to you. For example, if you don't like a certain food let's say, you can actually love it just be learning how to reasociate the taste/flavor with something you find enjoyable, often times a particular point in your past. A lot of it is also environmental factors within that point in the past, the weather, being outside or inside, the smell of the place you were at, the time of day (morning, afternoon, night), as well as various other factors.

When you reach a point in which you can actively change the associations in your mind you will start to enjoy art more for it's creative skill than anything. You see, generally speaking, I enjoy EVERYTHING I do and I constantly try new things. The reason that I ALWAYS enjoy things is because I can switch those associtations on and off like switches. When you always enjoy everything, you learn to take better appreciation of the true mastery of skill involved in the piece.

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:59 pm

Again, I suggest you reconsider your definitions, though not to say you have to.

It seems you're more fascinated with technical/mechanical/structural achievements as opposed to creative ones. Doesn't that sort of go more into a technical realm rather than artistic?

Myself, I do like technical achievements, but I don't lump them together with art. Art is based on adequacy, not perfection.

Personally, again, nothing personal - but your view of art slightly offends me