EVA Ending (MAJOR SPOILER WARNING)

[OmniStrata]

/me stands in awe of this thread...

dang dw, you could give ErMaC a run for his money here with what you've typed...

Yeah, I guess you're right. 'Bout the things I said I mean. I held nothing but hate/contempt for this show and it shows in my arguments... I'll be more objective here...

Does the fact that people say this series is "fucked-up" automatically make them ignorant fools? I've seen the whole series and as of now seen this whole thread... I don't think I need to see it again...

Everyone has their rights and wrongs. I leave this series solely in the hands of it's director. People got pissed, so he got pissed. It's fine, we're all human.

Though I bluntly say, "in the end, we all die so who cares?!". I guess I should dive somewhat deeper into this. Endings such as these get somewhat odd. The tv series ending was just ??? We here lots of poetic statements being spoken. [some of which didn't make sense to me till now since I was in high school when I saw this...] We are also bombarded with low budget recycled footage and seizures of several stills. That part disappointed me somewhat save for that one line: "3rd impact has occurred". Ok, end of the world, KA POW!! Is it right for the world to just "end"? Is the fact that we are all living for no purpose worth believing in? Not just "they all die blah blah" but there's nothing and no one left. It's almost as if what is done is pointless. These are the views of a suicidal and depressed person [director...]

We live and do out best so we are not forgotten. That is the reason behind human procreation and advancement. We get smarter over time and hope that after our deaths, something of us is left behind. Kids... Memories of our achievements [technology] , signs that we once existed [our heirs?]

This 3rd impact I now see can be interpreted as "we are in Heaven now, and it's an ocean of Orange TANG! yum..." I know that's somewhat goofy, but look at it! IT'S TANG!



LCL [what's it mean? my guess, Liquid Crystal Life: sounds cool to me...] It also smells like blood... A see of blood? The liquid of life? Perhaps I was wrong. Just cause the world ended don't mean it's over... That ocean of "Tang" has all the substance that makes life. Not just human but life in general. Proteins unbinded. It's only a matter of time before it comes back. That's the cycle isn't it? "Death is only the Beginning," as Imhotep would say...

[holy shit, Evangelion may RETURN! MORE MISATO MAYBE!! ^_^]

Still, my reasons behind hating this series are mine alone. All are facts [to my beliefs and what I can remember] and all justify my hate. I never did say that anyone was mindless for loving this series... [though if you assumed that, you're a moron ^_^]

Everyone's posts [and gags yay!] about Eva are all well and good. I loved it myself to a point... I was deep down hoping Shinji would get some guts if any and make his move on one of the other pilots. [not sex, that's what h-doujins are for...] A kiss [not that Asuka gag] would have sealed this series for me quite well. [no Misato's "I'll finish it when you get back" don't count either...]

Odd, many DBZ references can be made with this series somewhat. Everyone's got a back story and there's ALWAYS a way to win and whenever our heroes/heroines get stomped down, they seem to rise up stronger every stinkin' time [saiyan style...] All are references to a story of cultural points. DBZ is "Journey West", Eva makes biblical references... I'm glad that one ep is usually all that's needed to finish a fight... That's why this thing is ranked higher than DBZ [which isn't saying much to me...]

I know it's more than fighting and that "everyone dies". Or is it? Throughout the whole series, what do we see? Angel comes, Evangelions retaliate. The character development between the people also didn't like, "seize me" the way other anime series can. I just didn't "care or feel" anything at all for what happened toward the end. When I feel like "the characters are worthless", then yes, I feel though I was cheated...

Not qualified to "know Eva"? I would have seen it digisubbed if those existed WAYY back then... I don't dive into deep research regarding this anime though and I don't think I have to. If you have to go beyond the anime itself to prove a point, then you've already left it behind and ventured into other territory.

If some of you still have no idea what I just typed, that's fine, you don't have to. I hate Eva. I never said anyone had to agree with me.

Oh yeah: God's in His Heaven, all's Right with the Org...

8)

[the Black Monarch]

If you watch the TV series and the movie, it's pretty obvious that he's rejecting Instrumentality and choosing to live his own life with the knowledge that he is a "somebody."

In Episode 25, he is told that he has already made the choice to live in his own world in Instrumentality. In the movie, I STILL haven't found the part where he is presented with a choice, or the part where a decision is made. All I can find is Fuyutsuki saying that "the future is up to Ikari's son."

You're missing the point. I do agree that she has emotions, but the quote is saying she "appears" to not have any (and later reveals she does). My point was that you reject something, by using that when in fact it's an accurate description

No, the point is that she doesn't even appear to lack emotion. Many of her emotions are expressed with Shinji standing right in front of her. Asuka is the only person in the show who thinks Rei doesn't have emotions.

As for these things that don't make sense...name them

Well, there's the Rei thing, which I've already pointed out. There's also the fact that Keel's body is NOT 100% mechanical, from ANY point down, not that the phrase "from the spine down" makes any kind of sense considering that the spine runs half of the height of the body.

Alien 4 was a strong film????? My arse, it was the weakess of the lot, it should never have been made..... the only thing it has going for itself is the scene of the marines (All american, strange isn't it, they are always american marine....) getting killed in the escape pod......

1) The first movie was the weakest. It had the least creative plot and the least amount of emotion or character development. Alien Resurrection, by contrast, focuses more on Ripley and less on the Aliens than any of the other movies. Parker also narrowly beats Elgyn for the record of being able to tell that a character is going to die a long time before it happens.

2)There is no reason to believe that all of the marines on that pod were American. And it was probably one of the most tastelessly done parts of that movie, MAYBE second to the part where the Alien gets sucked out the hole in the Betty's window, or the part where Mr. Neurotic dies. Those few tastelessly done parts were the only things about Alien Res. that put it at #3 on my list.

The best one one was the first...... true horror..... followed by the third, then the second........... the fourth film doesnt come into it.........

No, the second was the best, then the third (for extremely minor technical reasons regarding the Alien climbing around on the ceiling like it's filled with helium or something), then the fourth (for previously mentioned tasteless scenes), then the first (for previously mentioned lack of creativity and depth).

Shinji shouldave picked the reality where Rei was the new student...... now that would be good.... hey, wasnt there a special OVA made of that ???

No, but there was a very good fanfiction based on it. Garden of Eva. Read.

I disagree (although agree on Aliens 4 sucking)

You have gone down 2 points on my respectometer.

Yeah, i like Aliens, but its all action, and very little story, sure the action is awesome, but i prefer a story to action (i still watch Aliens, its easy watching

WTF? Aliens had one of the best stories of the bunch! There were what, four action scenes that lasted all of 5 minutes each? And the first one happened, like, an hour into the movie.

In the TV series Film Books Anno says that Kaji was killed by "a third party working either for SEELE or for NERV's Intelligence Division." Anno didn't just say "NERV", but rather "NERV's Intelligence Division". While this is still unclear, it eliminates Misato since she does not work for the Intelligence Division. Key thing here is that Anno, the director and creator said this

That is something that I accept, since it comes directly from the creator's mouth.

Basically it deals with the fact Asuka's eye color is blue and in the movie it is also blue.

No, they're definitely brown at the end of the movie. It even says so in the American version Director's Commentary (not that they know what they're talking about 100% of the time, but they're not color-blind).

If it was approved by the creator, I think it is reasonable to say that it tells the truth. Say what you want since he didn't write it, but we know how important Eva is to him and for him to approve something incorrect defeats the purpose of his entire show and that he cared at all

It's funny to hear that coming from someone who says that Anno was coerced into making a movie that he didn't want to make.

Basically, I agree and do hope those are straight from the show (quotes) because to me, there is no way for him to say "me" within Instrumentality. The point of Instrumentality was to break down individuality and our AT fields. There is no "me" in there. We are one giant pool of LCL and happy together IN it. There can be no "me."

Dude, it's not the Borg Collective we're talking about here. Everyone is in the process of merging, but they still retain their individual identities and consciousnesses. Otherwise, we wouldn't see the characters taking turns sitting in The Chair, we'd see one amalgam of all the characters sitting in the chair at the same time, going "Whoa! Too many people in my head!"

[dwchang]

In Episode 25, he is told that he has already made the choice to live in his own world in Instrumentality. In the movie, I STILL haven't found the part where he is presented with a choice, or the part where a decision is made. All I can find is Fuyutsuki saying that "the future is up to Ikari's son."

Funny considering I already wrote about that and you obviously didn't read it:

"3) Further evidence about the ending of Evangelion and the fact Shinji rejected Instrumentality and that we all have a choice:
"When given a choice at the end of Complement Project, if he wanted mankind to return to reality or to complete the project, Shinji decided that a life in reality, no matter how painful, is better than a fake happiness (Kaworu: "AT-Field will harm you and others again, are you sure?" Shinji: "That's fine.") "

Yui also says: "All living things have the ability to return to their original form... and the heart to go on living.""

If you don't think he came back then how can you explain the ending where he is on a desolate earth and Eva 05 - 13 are in the sea and so on? That's his ideal world eh? At the same time, if you think he stayed in his false reality, you are missing the entire point of Eva.

1) The first movie was the weakest. It had the least creative plot

Yeah so much less creative than it's sequels right? I mean the original one that came up with these concepts MUST be the least creative.

I disagree (although agree on Aliens 4 sucking)

You have gone down 2 points on my respectometer.

And I should care why?

I think you've fallen off the scale on almost everyone on the .org's "respectometer" looking at the posts I've seen people make against you in the "General Video" forum as well as here. I'm sure you sense this general "negative feel" to every reply to you in almost every thread you post on. Perhaps you should think about that before the next time you post.

Basically it deals with the fact Asuka's eye color is blue and in the movie it is also blue.

No, they're definitely brown at the end of the movie. It even says so in the American version Director's Commentary (not that they know what they're talking about 100% of the time, but they're not color-blind).

Did you not go to the site I posted and the picture on it?

HERE since you're lazy. At the same time, my best explanation is they screwed up slightly in their coloring or something stupid. Either way, that picture should explain it (which was in my post that you didn't read).

It's funny to hear that coming from someone who says that Anno was coerced into making a movie that he didn't want to make.

And it's even funnier to see you say this after you just said:

That is something that I accept, since it comes directly from the creator's mouth.

Funny how you accept this and not something that creator approved of. The fact he made the movie out of coersion does not invalidate what *he* (the creator) says is truth. Your point and argument have well...no point or validity behind them and you yourself contradicted yourself here. You could've been consistent and just said you don't believe either since the director was coerced into doing it and thus anything he says isn't worth listening to...I mean come on..the director/creator how does he get the gall to tell us answers to something HE made?

I should just listen to AtomicWeezleman and the rest of the .org since a lot of people tend to ignore you.

dwchang, just drop it now, you know your right, i know your right, majority of the org knows your rite, just let it die now...........

I feel sorry for Jebadia.

[dwchang]

Does the fact that people say this series is "fucked-up" automatically make them ignorant fools? I've seen the whole series and as of now seen this whole thread... I don't think I need to see it again...

No not at all. Don't misunderstand me. I am saying that I hate when people BLINDLY say things like that about things they don't understand. If you understand and still hate it...more power to ya.

Though I bluntly say, "in the end, we all die so who cares?!". I guess I should dive somewhat deeper into this. Endings such as these get somewhat odd. The tv series ending was just ??? We here lots of poetic statements being spoken. [some of which didn't make sense to me till now since I was in high school when I saw this...] We are also bombarded with low budget recycled footage and seizures of several stills. That part disappointed me somewhat save for that one line: "3rd impact has occurred". Ok, end of the world, KA POW!! Is it right for the world to just "end"? Is the fact that we are all living for no purpose worth believing in? Not just "they all die blah blah" but there's nothing and no one left. It's almost as if what is done is pointless. These are the views of a suicidal and depressed person [director...]

But...we've already established in the ending everyone DIDN'T die and that the ending is actually happy in that Shinji chooses to live in reality rather than a false fabricated world without any TRUE interaction. He decides this because he finds his own self-worth...I don't find that at all pointless or depressing. In all actuality, Evangelion was Anno's project AFTER his depression...it was his "answer." I implore you to perhaps re-read what was said in this thread since it was quite clearly stated and with many quotes and scenes in the series.

LCL [what's it mean? my guess, Liquid Crystal Life: sounds cool to me...] It also smells like blood... A see of blood? The liquid of life? Perhaps I was wrong. Just cause the world ended don't mean it's over... That ocean of "Tang" has all the substance that makes life. Not just human but life in general. Proteins unbinded. It's only a matter of time before it comes back. That's the cycle isn't it? "Death is only the Beginning," as Imhotep would say...

Again...LCL is our form without an AT-field. It is our form that is..err...formless. It's how we are without a barrier keeping us away from each other. As for people coming back, it is clearly stated that anyone CAN choose to come back to "true" reality although it is harsh and so on...I think it'd be fine though with that self-searching and so on that is completed.

I know it's more than fighting and that "everyone dies". Or is it? Throughout the whole series, what do we see? Angel comes, Evangelions retaliate. The character development between the people also didn't like, "seize me" the way other anime series can. I just didn't "care or feel" anything at all for what happened toward the end. When I feel like "the characters are worthless", then yes, I feel though I was cheated...

Wow, not siezed by the character...not to sound mean, but the characters are just exaggerations of characteristics ALL humans have and that's why I find Eva so appealing and uplifting in the end. Seeing someone SO helpless Shinji who defines himself by what others think? Has no real identity...self-pity, etc. We ALL feel that way some times and yet even he found himself and that his life was worth living.

How can they be worthless when in reality they are just...us.

Not qualified to "know Eva"? I would have seen it digisubbed if those existed WAYY back then... I don't dive into deep research regarding this anime though and I don't think I have to. If you have to go beyond the anime itself to prove a point, then you've already left it behind and ventured into other territory.

No, I agree that the show by itself should be sufficient and I'd like to think I pointed out things mainly from the show (with respect to the big picture, not the tidbits since they are just for fun). It's confusing at times, but all of it IS there and I think the posts and "evidence" point to that as well.

[AbsoluteDestiny]

The problem, of course, is the red pill blue pill dilemna. Choose Instrumentality and live in a false world, choose "reality" and live in something, well, potentially painful.

I'm the sort of person who would like a fairy godmother, so you can guess which one I'd choose

[dwchang]

The problem, of course, is the red pill blue pill dilemna. Choose Instrumentality and live in a false world, choose "reality" and live in something, well, potentially painful.

I'm the sort of person who would like a fairy godmother, so you can guess which one I'd choose

I agree. Another misconception is that *everybody* will come back. I don't think that's the case either. I mean enlightenment is great and all, but so is a "perfect" world.

Wow you sure came late j/k

[AbsoluteDestiny]

I dont usually go for the long eva threads because they are usually filled with nonesense. The nonesense has been mostly ironed out here.

One comment upon the Asuka as Rei at the end of EoE that I'd like to make.

It's an easy mistake to make because she is bandaged very much like Rei was when Shinji first saw her. So, if it was a fantasy created by Shinji you could imagine Asuka being dressed like that.

However, the bandages actually correspond to the two wounds we see Asuka receive during Air. The first occurs as the 1st lance pierces unit 02's head and her left eye bleeds. Hence the eye patch. The second is her arm ripping in two which is the last we see of her before the 3rd impact.

So, there's the reality of it. If Asuka was to return, those are the parts of her that would need patching up.

[the Black Monarch]

Funny considering I already wrote about that and you obviously didn't read it:

"3) Further evidence about the ending of Evangelion and the fact Shinji rejected Instrumentality and that we all have a choice:
"When given a choice at the end of Complement Project, if he wanted mankind to return to reality or to complete the project, Shinji decided that a life in reality, no matter how painful, is better than a fake happiness (Kaworu: "AT-Field will harm you and others again, are you sure?" Shinji: "That's fine.") "

I used to have a translation of the movie that I thought was more accurate, but it got wiped out when AW reformatted my hard drive, so I'm going to have to go with the DVD subtitles:
Kaworu: "Is it alright for the AT Field to cause you and others pain again?"
Shinji: "I don't mind"

It seems to me more like Shinji is saying he is okay with something that will happen anyway than like Shinji is making a choice.

Yui also says: "All living things have the ability to return to their original form... and the heart to go on living.""

That's probably the third or fourth different translation of that line that I've heard so far. This is why I intend to learn Japanese.

If you don't think he came back then how can you explain the ending where he is on a desolate earth and Eva 05 - 13 are in the sea and so on? That's his ideal world eh? At the same time, if you think he stayed in his false reality, you are missing the entire point of Eva.

WHOA WHOA WHOA there! Excuse me, but did I ever say I thought he never came back? Stop arguing against things that I never said.

Yeah so much less creative than it's sequels right? I mean the original one that came up with these concepts MUST be the least creative.

Plot-wise, the first movie didn't come up with anything. The entire plot of the first movie was "Spaceshiup crew finds alien, alien kills spaceship crew". Do you really think Alien was the first movie to use that plot?

I do give the first movie credit for coming up with the alien creature and all, but I think original storyline ideas are more important than original monster designs.

I think you've fallen off the scale on almost everyone on the .org's "respectometer" looking at the posts I've seen people make against you in the "General Video" forum as well as here. I'm sure you sense this general "negative feel" to every reply to you in almost every thread you post on. Perhaps you should think about that before the next time you post.

You're only the third person that I've had a really major disagreement with. I've seen more responses to my own posts than you have (to my posts, not yours), and based all such responses, it seems to me like most of the people here think I'm okay.

Did you not go to the site I posted and the picture on it? HERE since you're lazy. At the same time, my best explanation is they screwed up slightly in their coloring or something stupid. Either way, that picture should explain it (which was in my post that you didn't read).

Yes, I've seen pictures where her eye color was changed to blue from the original brown. I don't care about them, because I don't buy into that whole "three women in one" theory anyway.

Funny how you accept this and not something that creator approved of. The fact he made the movie out of coersion does not invalidate what *he* (the creator) says is truth. Your point and argument have well...no point or validity behind them and you yourself contradicted yourself here. You could've been consistent and just said you don't believe either since the director was coerced into doing it and thus anything he says isn't worth listening to...I mean come on..the director/creator how does he get the gall to tell us answers to something HE made?

When the director says something firsthand, I believe him. When he puts his stamp on something that someone else wrote, and that he might not have even read thoroughly (or maybe even at all ), I treat it with skepticism. IF he was truly "forced" to make the movie, then he may have been "forced" to approve the RCB as well. Maybe he knew about the errors but was still so pissed off that he decided to fuck with his fans even more. We really have no idea what his state of mind was at the time. But when he is personally asked a question about an event in the series, and he gives an answer, I believe him. That's not self-contradiction, it's differentiation.

[AtomicWeezleman]

Hmm....... three women in one??? Almost as good as a woman made of pie.....................


On topic,

Asukas wounds, yes, they corespond to the injuries that she received in her last stand............... but Rei/Misato/Asuka mix.......... no, idont think that true, but i do think its how Shinji perceives it.......... hes just had a very bad day, so hes a little fucked in the head.........


I thought we wernt gona argue anymore........Love and Peace everyone........

With reference to Alien Ressurection, The Marines being american??? Of course they are american, its the neive view that america will rule the world in the future, so the millitary american, the navy's america etc etc


So the first film didn't have much story?? Well, sure, it is the tired plot off 'alien boards ship, massacres crew, get killed by last member of crew'.
However, the film was very well put together (apart from when the alien errupts from that guys chest, and jumps on the table..... im sure its on a scalectric track!). the film had suspence, Alien3 had suspence...... 2 and 4 didnt, i think its due to there being so many marines........ its far more fun when youre on your tod........... yes, to be alone in the dark......

Yet again, lets stop argueing over this topic, put it down
enought from me for now

[LittleKefalos]

Anyways I like this thread and I read it all, except most of the Alien things, it's a bit distracting, but humorous how that movie would include itself here.

One thing I believe is a bit incomplete in this thread, though it was touched upon was the choking of Asuka.

First off I want to put in my two bits for the eye colour thing-- her eyes are blue its just that she's in a different paler light, the rest of her colours are off too.

ok now that that's done more important things...

This link covers an interesting angle to Asuka's choking and why Shinji did it but....
http://www.evaotaku.com/omake/Horn-Review.txt

the one thing that I felt was left out that I have never heard anyone say was that it may have been Shinji was choking her to help her leave this painful world. When he came back he could accept his own suffering because he learned through it, but he knew by now the constant pain Asuka had felt in her life and he thus wanted to spare her of this fate (i.e. to help her even if she didn't want it).

This also leads to an interesting interpretation of what Asuka says at the end. I have three ideas that I have not yet heard for this:

1. Personal:
This being that she was disgusted Shinji couldn't go through with it he lacks the personal strength to follow through and she has to live with this person now whom she can't stand for his weakness and though who is somehow "stronger than her."

2. Physical:
Also imagine being choked or try choking yourself (don't kill yourself though!) it produces a very sickening feeling, so hello of course you'll say something like "I feel sick" of course why does she have to look down first? Shinji being on top of her like he was is also likely to produce a feeling of disgust.

3. Sexual:
Asuka previously in the series expresses disgust at the sexuality of any of the characters even stating (I think during the everyone is as one LCL period) that she can't believe she will have to do "that" when she grows up. So she has come to the realization that she will have to engage in sexual activity with Shinji at some point and this reawakens her disgust.

Maybe also Asuka was unconciously aware of that he masterbated to her comatic body, remember earlier how after one battle she questioned his kissing her and he says "no fair you were supposed to be sleeping" and she is then "aware" he tried this. So what does she do later kisses him with disgust. About the masterbation, during the LCL period in a subway car she says "something something you can have those jerk off fantasies and I'll watch but it has to be only to me or something or other" (not sure exact quote.

Note: Rei doesn't know her sexuality, Asuka knows uses it, but doesn't really want to act on it, Misato uses it to feel loved, Gendo for his own personal gain, Ritsko and her mother need to feel wanted, others take note of LCL period who everyone sees and Aoba I think it is sees no one (well Rei I guess), maybe he was just consigned to his fate.
Shinji well he's a bit tough and even inconsistent.

Though Shinji at the end is crying not the parallel of Rei's crying these two scenes are crying because of a sacrifice that was to be made, so maybe Asuka's is disgusted with the fact that he thinks himself the hero who must continue to sacrifice himself.

Note also: Shinji claims earlier that he can't swim and has never learned because of his fears, Asuka want him to swim (volcano episode), during Instrumentality he is swimming in LCL--what has he overcome by this. Is this a metaphor for sexuality?

Of course I want to point out that I don't believe anyone of these ideas over the other, in fact I agree most with what most people have said about the choking and disgust scene (i.e dwchang, and also read the link those two are good) I was just offering some other pertinent opinions.

Also I read somewhere that in the end the gender roles of society are switched by the Adam and Eve type scenario (because of Shinji and Asuka's personalities) I don't think this though because I do believe some others must be a alive in the world.

Though I do have some questions...

How are they going to live on this world? Unless it is the garden of eden (post tree of knowledge, I mean they know, but because there is no God and no angels nothing can keep them out of the garden and so..) and the LCL is the tree of life which I guess they drink to live it has all they need.

Ok I kinda answered possibly that one, but here's one...

Can we suppose Shinji dug the graves? Was the cross holding grave a show of misato’s death because of her impurity (in sex, and in taking on Shinji sexually even though she said she wouldn't).

Shinji let go of the cross in the LCL.

Note: 3 pilots lost mothers, but only really Shinji and Asuka, Rei never had one, she was one? Misato lost father, no mention of mother?

If Shinji did dig these graves that means he was there for a while already, maybe Asuka was too. Or maybe the graves where just there.

I think that maybe Rei's appearance at the end may indicate that she will always be there, perhaps as a goddess/spirit?

What will happen to Rei's giant head? disintegrate? who cares... just a thought.

What happens to people who died long before? Are their spirits put into LCL from which they can escape, kind of like a final judgement.

Also the moon plays a big role in this movie, symbolizing maternity? and at the end it is divided by the floating blood into two, symbolizing both the fact that people have been divided again (at least two, maybe only two) and that these two have overcome their need for their mother, they have reconciled finally their mothers death.

I like what Gendo says at the end in my view it redeems him, he was just scared like everyone else, he was an older Shinji, it is interesting that we are not shown him turning into LCL.

You know some of this was muddled sorry about that, but it should indicate that this thread is far from over.