DK's Anime List

[CaTaClYsM]

You obviously haven't read all my replies or at least have only skimmed it. I don't think it's this GOD-AWFUL thing. What I'm trying to communicate is that it's illegal. The first few arguments were this rationalization that it was alright or not even legal. IMO I think you're going off on a tangent, but whatever (shrug).

Regardless of if one is more severe than the other, they are still both illegal.

And I have been trying to say that ETHICALY, there is no reason for it to be illegal since there are things like the LEGAL buying and selling of used DVD's. On top of the fact that alot of the DVD's I've had the misfortune of buying arent worth the plastic their made out of.

[CaTaClYsM]

I mean, how do you think it makes the populus of aniem fans feel when they just bought the 200 buck eva box set only to find out that in japan they went and rereleased a didgitaly remastered box set of eva? They'll feel screwed and pissed.

[dwchang]

I'll tell you what...since I'm lazy and honestly don't want to go find these posts, I'll just forget about it alright?

Now by the same token, please don't take this as some "I win" stance or whatever. I know one could easily say "Well since he can't find them, that must mean that they don't exist." I did say that "people" have said and in all honesty, I don't feel like arguing about your credibility and whatnot since it's A) off-topic and B) could turn into more personal attacks. \

Of course it is my fault for believing other people's opinion and judging you and for that I apologize. I'd like to think the statement (later ones) were a bit more understanding in that since I state that you could be serious and whatnot. I apologize since that's the case. Again..it's me believing statements from other people and a handful of your own statements that I was unsure about.

And another thing, since you seem to hate the distro of illegal anime so much, I think you should do something about klinky and rad's Eva project since it clearly goes beyond simple downloaded footage.

Well..I've heard about the project and yeah I do think it's bad and illegal. By the same token, I'm not a taddle-tale. They're free to do what they want, but should be aware of the consequences and effect they are having (what little it is).

And I have been trying to say that ETHICALY, there is no reason for it to be illegal since there are things like the LEGAL buying and selling of used DVD's. On top of the fact that alot of the DVD's I've had the misfortune of buying arent worth the plastic their made out of.

Well I won't argue if it SHOULD be legal or whatnot, my point is that one is illegal and therefore under the law it's unethical (currently). \

At the same time, buying a used DVD may not give the company money, but it's not creating another copy of their data. The DVD you are buying has already been purchased and when you buy it, you are changing owners. That person no longer has a copy of the data (for a monetary exchange) and now you do. Therefore, the first exchange of money (with the store) still holds and the company got their money. The person wanted to sell it and it changed owners...you're not screwing over someone since you didn't create a copy of that data without the company getting that money for their data.

In the case of distro-ing d/led footage, you are creating multiple copies of their copy without any money going to them. I hope this makes sense...I re-read it and noticed some rambling...

I mean, how do you think it makes the populus of aniem fans feel when they just bought the 200 buck eva box set only to find out that in japan they went and rereleased a didgitaly remastered box set of eva? They'll feel screwed and pissed.

Oh trust me, I am pissed they did this. I too have the Eva Perfect boxset and will be very angry when they re-release it with all this great footage and make (haha) me fork over another 200 bucks. By the same token, this doesn't at all justify me stealing from them. As much as I disagree with them on doing this, they have every right to well...screw the fans. They made the show and can just continually create better versions to make money. It's sad, but they're a business and their goal is to make money. It's a shame that they gotta do this to make it, but it's not illegal like what we are talking about.

Basically, don't misunderstand...I see the point of view and am ONLY trying to argue about the legalities of it. I'm fairly sure you and Alucard are willing to admit that and that's great (since it means the debate can finish), but there are A LOT of people who have no intention of giving back to the community of paying for these things. They're under this delusion that they don't effect things and they are "above" it since they wouldn't have bought it anyway and no negative effects. I hope it's clear now...because I'm a little tired of repeating myself to the same retorts.

[CaTaClYsM]

I aplaude you for your high moral fiber, but there are factors that need to be taken into account that you seem to be overlooking. Don't forget the other part of my statement. The one about alot of anime R1 releases being crap. And I am FORCED to buy it simply because I wouldn't want to break the law. So what do I get? I get to buy berserk, Eva, and Trigun and shell out enough money to keep me in food for a MONTH while I sit and wait for better versions to come out so I can give up ANOTHER months of food for R1 DVD's so that I'm not 'breaking the law'. I whole-heartedly agree that breaking the law is wrong. But I don't like having the law used against me so that I am forced to give people money they don't have the right to take from me.


To basicaly sum up my platform, if they screw up with a DVD release (like Eva, Berserk, or Trigun.) then I Should not have to pay them for their mistake.

The way things are now, people have to buy a copy of an anime, and by law they should legaly own it if they are going to watch it, despite how crappy the DVD's may be. Then they HAVE to buy the newer DVD's so that they don't have to deal with crappy things like interlaced footage, luminaries, noise from bad MPEG-2 encoding and other problems liek when the picture begins to bounce all over the place (like with Berserk, Trigun, and Eva.) Now if I could just watch my downloaded footage, then the people releasing the DVD's would need to *GASP* ACTUALLY MAKE SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO PAY FOR. And *GASP* FIX ANY EXISTING PROBLEM'S THAT THE DVD'S MAY HAVE BEFORE SELLING THEM TO THE PUBLIC. because frankly, I've seen downloaded eva eps that would work as better source footage than the R1. And while ethicaly, I should buy the DVD's, they ethicaly, should at least give me the satisfaction of knowing I did the right thing instead of the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I'm going to loose another 600 dollars.

Oh, and another thing to point out. If you wont download anime because it is against the law, then by that logic you wouldn't download AMV's either because they break the SAME laws that the downloaded eps have. But you still download AMV's don't you? Because sometimes you need to let your own social norms and ethics decide for you rather than a ruling by a judge who doesn't know all the fact's before passing a law. It HAS been known to happen before.

[CaTaClYsM]

post script, I know what you have to say about the legalities of downloaded footage I'm talking not about is it illegal or illegal but, should the laws even be there or not, no need to repeat yourself about 'it is illegal and that's all there is to it'

[Alucard_FoN]

The main problem we seem to be having is that you're arguing whether or not it's legal, and I'm arguing whether or not it's ethical. I agree with you 100% that downloading anime is illegal. Hell, making and distributing AMV's is illegal. I just don't agree that it's unethical in all cases.

[dwchang]

I aplaude you for your high moral fiber, but there are factors that need to be taken into account that you seem to be overlooking. Don't forget the other part of my statement. The one about alot of anime R1 releases being crap. And I am FORCED to buy it simply because I wouldn't want to break the law. So what do I get? I get to buy berserk, Eva, and Trigun and shell out enough money to keep me in food for a MONTH while I sit and wait for better versions to come out so I can give up ANOTHER months of food for R1 DVD's so that I'm not 'breaking the law'. I whole-heartedly agree that breaking the law is wrong. But I don't like having the law used against me so that I am forced to give people money they don't have the right to take from me.


To basicaly sum up my platform, if they screw up with a DVD release (like Eva, Berserk, or Trigun.) then I Should not have to pay them for their mistake.

The way things are now, people have to buy a copy of an anime, and by law they should legaly own it if they are going to watch it, despite how crappy the DVD's may be. Then they HAVE to buy the newer DVD's so that they don't have to deal with crappy things like interlaced footage, luminaries, noise from bad MPEG-2 encoding and other problems liek when the picture begins to bounce all over the place (like with Berserk, Trigun, and Eva.) Now if I could just watch my downloaded footage, then the people releasing the DVD's would need to *GASP* ACTUALLY MAKE SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO PAY FOR. And *GASP* FIX ANY EXISTING PROBLEM'S THAT THE DVD'S MAY HAVE BEFORE SELLING THEM TO THE PUBLIC. because frankly, I've seen downloaded eva eps that would work as better source footage than the R1. And while ethicaly, I should buy the DVD's, they ethicaly, should at least give me the satisfaction of knowing I did the right thing instead of the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I'm going to loose another 600 dollars.

Well...along those lines I agree to a degree. As I said earlier, I hate that they do this too, but at the same time I accept it and TRY and make educated purchases (like I should've waited on Eva). I guess if this is your reasoning (download since they are screwing you over anyway), I can't really argue against it since you feel this way and I feel my way.

I'm glad you've pointed out the legal part since that was all I was trying to say from the start. I was trying to convey the whole "no one gets screwed since I wouldn't have bought it anyway" feeling as incorrect and illegal although many people seem to think otherwise.

Again, it sucks that that's the way it is, but well...that's how they (inefficiently) run their businesses and screw you. Unfortunately there's nothing illegal about it. If there were some sense of "justice" (not in the legal sense) they should give you a large discount on the purchase of the new version. Regardless, is another topic entirely and I DO see your points...as well as you seeing mine...

Oh, and another thing to point out. If you wont download anime because it is against the law, then by that logic you wouldn't download AMV's either because they break the SAME laws that the downloaded eps have. But you still download AMV's don't you? Because sometimes you need to let your own social norms and ethics decide for you rather than a ruling by a judge who doesn't know all the fact's before passing a law. It HAS been known to happen before.

True, true. Under the DMCA AMVs are illegal (and do not come under "fair use") as well, but the reason nothing has happened is that Anime companies actually like us doing this since it's sort of like free advertising for them. I do see your point, but just as you reason a certain way, I reason them to be harmless since it's not the whole episode and stuff like that. In turn, you could argue that I have another artist's music or portions of their information (the small fraction of video used) and that in reality that's still stealig a little or whatnot.

[CaTaClYsM]

True, true. Under the DMCA AMVs are illegal (and do not come under "fair use") as well, but the reason nothing has happened is that Anime companies actually like us doing this since it's sort of like free advertising for them. I do see your point, but just as you reason a certain way, I reason them to be harmless since it's not the whole episode and stuff like that. In turn, you could argue that I have another artist's music or portions of their information (the small fraction of video used) and that in reality that's still stealig a little or whatnot.

See, now ths is what I was getting at exactly, regardless of the law's, people have their own ethics about what is going to be right or wrong and it cannot be a black and white generalization because once you say that it's wrong because this specific law is broken, then anything that breaks that specific law should thusly be wrong and not done as well. But as you said, "I reason that it's harmless since..." See that part there? that was you thinking for yourself and coming to a rational conclusion to the situation. Because despite what the law says, the people making the animes like the free advertizements, and oftentimes the music groups/performers like AMV's using their songs. In fact, there are threads about AMV creators being asked by music groups to see AMV's using said groups song. There are PLENTY of reasons why AMV's are NOT wrong and are a way to actually help the anime market and music industry.

Now back to the subject of downloaded anime, on top of the 'I don't have the money' excuse There is also the fact that some animes arent released in the US and people need to get the R2 DVD's. And the even BIGGER reason (which everyone has to admit to be true) you want to see the anime before you buy it, and 90% of the animes I've seen I have yet to get news of their being aired on television here in the states.

Now there is a difference between downloading anime and NOT buying the DVD's because people can very well do both. But as for NOT buying the DVD's, since this Eva tragedy I have decided that if an anime DVD release was crappy to begin with, wait until newer better DVD's are released. So I think it goes without saying that I think people should go out and buy an anime if there arent any probllems with the job the R1 companies did with the DVD's. It may please you to know that I have NO problems with the domestic release of Metropolis, which Had none of the problems I listed other animes to have.

I may sound like I am repeating myself but there are things that need to be clarified further.

1. It is IMPOSIBLE for the situation of piracy to be black and white, AMV's prove it.

2. Even if a person has the money, they at least need to SEE the anime to find out if they like it because no review is going to be able to tell the person if HE/SHE will like it. And the anime probably isn't aired in the US, so downloaded anime, at least until anime becomes more mainstream, has to be an accepted evil.

3. Even though I personaly am not willing to buy a crappy R1 DVD (again) I would like to sate for the record that IF THE DVD HAS NO PROBLEMS THEN THERE IS NO REASON NOT TO BUY IT.

[dwchang]

See, now ths is what I was getting at exactly, regardless of the law's, people have their own ethics about what is going to be right or wrong and it cannot be a black and white generalization because once you say that it's wrong because this specific law is broken, then anything that breaks that specific law should thusly be wrong and not done as well. But as you said, "I reason that it's harmless since..." See that part there? that was you thinking for yourself and coming to a rational conclusion to the situation. Because despite what the law says, the people making the animes like the free advertizements, and oftentimes the music groups/performers like AMV's using their songs. In fact, there are threads about AMV creators being asked by music groups to see AMV's using said groups song. There are PLENTY of reasons why AMV's are NOT wrong and are a way to actually help the anime market and music industry.

But by the same token, one is a lot "worse" than the other. Just as the anime companies don't care about AMVs, they DO care about piracy of the entire disc. That is what I am getting at. Not that it makes it any less legal, but it does mean that the other party does not care and wouldn't prosecute. I do see what you mean by black and white though. I was referring to one instance...that of copying DVDs and distro-ing which I do think is black and white. You have obviously brought in other instances that it isn't the case. Also along and ethics guideline, I took a class in this and if it's against the law it's not ethical. You could argue that since ethics have to do with ones morals that that's not true, but regardless of your morals, it is immoral to break the law yes? I see what you're getting at I guess I'm just annoyed by that word useage. A better word would be your morals or whatever...ethics entails so much more.

Now back to the subject of downloaded anime, on top of the 'I don't have the money' excuse There is also the fact that some animes arent released in the US and people need to get the R2 DVD's. And the even BIGGER reason (which everyone has to admit to be true) you want to see the anime before you buy it, and 90% of the animes I've seen I have yet to get news of their being aired on television here in the states.

Well, I do see the point of that, but I was lucky enough to have a large rental place that had a huge section of anime. I could TRY before buying without making a copy of the data and screwing someone over. The rental place has permission to do that..I don't know. However, I do see the point and once again, I don't have that much of a problem with downloading, watching, deleting and HOPEFULLY buying. It's the whole hoarding of 200+ titles with no intention of giving back that annoys me (as I mentioned earlier).

Now there is a difference between downloading anime and NOT buying the DVD's because people can very well do both. But as for NOT buying the DVD's, since this Eva tragedy I have decided that if an anime DVD release was crappy to begin with, wait until newer better DVD's are released. So I think it goes without saying that I think people should go out and buy an anime if there arent any probllems with the job the R1 companies did with the DVD's. It may please you to know that I have NO problems with the domestic release of Metropolis, which Had none of the problems I listed other animes to have.

Well, I can your point. For Eva, yes I would probably wait and possibly (probably not for me, but others) have some other sort of copy while I waited. The reason I don't have so much of a problem is that in the end you DO buy the product. Now would it be best for the industry if you bought the original and not had a copy? Yes. Are they screwing you over? Yes. I guess the thing most people originally didn't see is that I understand this plight. The first post in general was about the legalities of it and this "sugar-coating" of it as something other than illegal. And of course what annoys me more is when people are screwed out of their money with no intention of ever buying...I hope this all makes sense? I think we're starting to see eye-to-eye, but your next post could prove me wrong

[CaTaClYsM]

Well, I do see the point of that, but I was lucky enough to have a large rental place that had a huge section of anime. I could TRY before buying without making a copy of the data and screwing someone over. The rental place has permission to do that..I don't know. However, I do see the point and once again, I don't have that much of a problem with downloading, watching, deleting and HOPEFULLY buying. It's the whole hoarding of 200+ titles with no intention of giving back that annoys me (as I mentioned earlier).

see, when I am talking about downloaded footage I'm not talking about something you can go and rent, there are a million and one animes that have yet to have complete releases in japan, those cannot be rented. And then there are others that you'll just never see with a domestic release. (like Azumanga Daioh, where fansubs are the only option if you cannot speak japanese.) this is what I was refering to when I say necesary evil. If it's rentable I think people would jump on it since it's only 5 bucks and the quality will be a helluva lot better.

and in response to the first part, all of these things, AMV's and Fansubs fall under the general category of 'piracy' and while they are vasly different, for better or worse they are legaly the same but even you admit that there are different kinds of piracy and that there can be instances when the law fails to adress a certain situation. And Fansubs aren't all that bad, if it werent for fansubs I doubt that anime would be where it is today.