Question Concerning Sojiro

Shun · Post by **Shun** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:02 pm

Hmm im not sure if Shisio is stronger then kenshin, i know that after the explosion from the gunpowder if shisio hadnt taken any chances and finished him off while he was down he would of deff been the victor.

But if there was a fight between shishio and sojiro which is highly unlikely do to their relationship i believe then sojiro could also win that fight based on the reasons even shishio said. Not even he would be able to predict sojiro.

And that counter-argument kind of degrades to theory behind kenshins reasoning. "Just because your are stronger dosent meen you are correct" so i believe that just because you win one fight dosent meen you are stronger.

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:08 pm

*********KENSHIN SPOILERS***********

Shun wrote:Hmm im not sure if Shisio is stronger then kenshin, i know that after the explosion from the gunpowder if shisio hadnt taken any chances and finished him off while he was down he would of deff been the victor.

My reasoning for this is seen in Episode 60. It is quite apparent that Shishio was QUITE a bit stronger than Kenshin prior to him igniting into flames. Shishio basically swings his sword, Kenshin blocks it, the very floor beneath them starts moving due to the shockwave and the viewer can see that Kenshin can barely even hold up his sword from the force of the blow.

This is also when Hoji mentions that Shishio has reached his ultimate limit. It's quite apparent that Shishio at his peak (this state) and Kenshin at his (with the leaves breaking) have HUGE differences. Shishio even shrugged off Kenshin's ultimate attack (a version even stronger since Shishio blocked it). If Shishio hadn't burst into flames, Shishio would easily have killed Kenshin. I'm sure Kenshin wouldn't even be able to block the next blow (as seen from his struggling from the first blow).

Then again, one could easily argue that this is why Shishio is weaker...his strength is his weakness.

Shun wrote:But if there was a fight between shishio and sojiro which is highly unlikely do to their relationship i believe then sojiro could also win that fight based on the reasons even shishio said. Not even he would be able to predict sojiro.

I agree. The only reason Soujirou would lose is because he respects Shishio so much and probably doesn't think he can defeat Shishio. This mindset is enough for him to lose.

Shun wrote:And that counter-argument kind of degrades to theory behind kenshins reasoning. "Just because your are stronger dosent meen you are correct" so i believe that just because you win one fight dosent meen you are stronger.

Well that was more about the stronger person having the right philosophy, but I know what you're getting at and I think you're correct.

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:10 pm

Not to be rude, but I have my own theories as to why people can't accept that Kenshin isn't the strongest character in the show. I mean...people like Kenshin. He's the main character of his own show...he SHOULD be the strongest right? BZZZT WRONG!

I think people have a natural attraction and attachment to the main character and thus are blind to the fact that he's not the strongest. I don't blame them..it's natural for us to feel this way about the hero. At the same time, I think people need to be a bit more honest and look at it objectively without clouding their judgement.

You don't even wanna know what happens later...Kenshin is *maybe* the 5th strongest character in his own show.

Just my two cents on why people think Kenshin is so strong.

Satomi · Post by **Satomi** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:15 pm

It's true that Kenshin isn't the strongest in the show. All of the toughest battles were won with luck. He even almost lost to Saitou. If their fight wasn't stopped. Saitou would have killed him. Soujiro broke and was readable. Shishio burst into flames. He shouldn't have one those battles but of course, the good people always have to win. Stuoid moral but its what always happens.

Savia · Post by **Savia** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:20 pm

With regards to the Shishio/Soujirou thing, one factor to consider is that Shishio claims that he is able to think up a countermeasure to any attack after seeing it only once. It may be that he would be able to think of something for the Shun Ten Satsu. Shishio I believe says to his woman (Yumi?)/girlfriend lady that Soujirou is not very good at the mental side of combat. This is clear from how Kenshin undermines him in their fight. Shishio's analytical and strategic powers are far, far above those of Kenshin or Soujirou either. This could give him an edge.

Personally, I think that, speaking only in terms of physical fightingKenshin is almost exactly equal to Soujirou after learning the final move. Often, they compare the pair's similarity via visual ties, and I think that this is kind of a pointer to this fact. Kenshin has the superior mental and emotional control and hence wins the fight.

Shishio I think was clearly about to win against Kenshin, and then got flambeed, so =/ is the outcome there.

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:29 pm

Savia wrote:With regards to the Shishio/Soujirou thing, one factor to consider is that Shishio claims that he is able to think up a countermeasure to any attack after seeing it only once. It may be that he would be able to think of something for the Shun Ten Satsu. Shishio I believe says to his woman (Yumi?)/girlfriend lady that Soujirou is not very good at the mental side of combat. This is clear from how Kenshin undermines him in their fight. Shishio's analytical and strategic powers are far, far above those of Kenshin or Soujirou either. This could give him an edge.

Good point. Shishio definitely is the better tachtician (sp). My only point is the same with Soujirou/Kenshin...Shishio wouldn't be able to see him and thus be dead in seconds.

Savia wrote:Personally, I think that, speaking only in terms of physical fightingKenshin is almost exactly equal to Soujirou after learning the final move. Often, they compare the pair's similarity via visual ties, and I think that this is kind of a pointer to this fact. Kenshin has the superior mental and emotional control and hence wins the fight.

Well again..that whole "if he hadn't gone crazy" and also if he just fought seriously the first time. It's obvious he's faster (for normal moves)...but yeah I agree on the similarities. It's the reason I like Soujirou so much. he strengthens the main character a bit and vice versa. That's an ideal villain to me. Their duality that is. Hell even Kenshin and Shishio have it...they have sister swords, have opposite ideals, one was the replacement for the other and so on.

Funny since I used the Kenshin/Soujirou duality (with respects to speed) in my own Kenshin action video (as Shun will attest)

.

In regards to the entire thing...it's all relative. Saying one person is at their peak and so on (i.e. Soujirou not breaking down, etc.). So yeah...all this is moot

. At the same time, it's fun to do it since I'm a Kenshin fanboy

.

Shun · Post by **Shun** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:32 pm

I wouldnt be so sure to say that kenshin and sojiro match in basic combat. Remeber Sojiros speed in not his only technique, tenken (god with sword) may have the possiblitly of prevailing in its self.

And not completely on your comment on shishio sojiro savia. You are right that Shishio was even able to find the counter to ryu tui syn(sp) after only seeing it one time. But tell me this, how could he see sojiros attacks? how could he predict where they would come from and how to counter? that would hav to be another deciding factor in the outcome of their fight.

Another thing that was mentioned about saito reminded me of this.

How messed up was saitos part in the fight against shishio? Why on earth would he aim the gatotsu(i know thats spelled wrong) for a part of the head that he can not see instead of impaling shishios face?

Satomi · Post by **Satomi** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:39 pm

I'm not sure if I'm correct or not in saying this so don't yell at me if I'm wrong but, didn't Shishio help Soujiro to become stronger. By practically raising Soujiro, Shishio would probably know everything about Soujiro's moves and more than likely know how to defend against him. We saw that Shishio doesn't like it when people watch him train, so Soujiro might not know Shishio's moves, or at least not all of them. I'm not trying to put down Soujiro or anything. I'm just saying that he might lose against Shishio.

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:52 pm

Satomi wrote:I'm not sure if I'm correct or not in saying this so don't yell at me if I'm wrong but, didn't Shishio help Soujiro to become stronger. By practically raising Soujiro, Shishio would probably know everything about Soujiro's moves and more than likely know how to defend against him. We saw that Shishio doesn't like it when people watch him train, so Soujiro might not know Shishio's moves, or at least not all of them. I'm not trying to put down Soujiro or anything. I'm just saying that he might lose against Shishio.

No you're correct. Well sort of. Basically the technique 'Tenken' means (not literally) "Heaven's Sword/Technique." Basically Soujirou's technique/skill is...well..he is naturally talented with the sword. It's almost like it was a God sent ability (hence the name). Basically Soujirou has inborn talent with the sword. Why do you think he was able to kill his family...two of them were armed and he was a child.

So I guess Shishio did "train" Soujirou in that he told Soujirou about his abillities, the names of the techniques and probably helped him tweak them.

At the same time, regardless of if he knows the techniques, I think by it's very definition, Soujirou's speed (Shuku-Chi) is too fast for the human eye and thus he would win purely on speed. BTW, this is just my opinion. Speed >>> Strength or Technique to me since you can't kill/defend what you can't see.

Savia · Post by **Savia** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 5:54 am

It's spelt 'tactician'

As an aside, dwchang, it was your Evolution vid that reminded me of just how often they do parallel Kenshin's and Soujirou's moves

One wonders if Shishio would be able to implement his ability to read Soujirou's 'signs' like he reads Kenshin's? By this, I'm referring to how he avoids the initial blow of the amakakeru by noticing Kenshin's left-footed stance ( another very good reason for them not reverse-printing the manga ^_^). Perhaps he would know of some tell-tale sign of Soujirou's intentions from his normal speed stance and preparations? I'm thinking that his knowledge of Soujirou before he buried himself under his outer facade of happiness might lend him an edge. It's not definite or anything, and I agree with you that Soujirou would be likely to win on grounds of speed, but it's not as foregone a conclusion as you might imagine. Shishio's stamina is also very impressive, excluding the time limit rule 8)

Hey, dwchang, is the manga any more forthcoming than the anime about what exactly Shishio's final move does, exactly?