Grave of the Fireflies.

[kthulhu]

And on the flip side, many Muslims also want the world to live the way that they say. Your point?

I'm not pointing a finger. I'm saying don't point a finger because you have no right to. Thanx for proving my point though.

No, you seem to be pointing a finger at the US as being "the big troublesome brute", while ignoring the fact that everyone in the world, given the chance, would 99% percent likely do the same thing, and maybe even worse.

As for us telling the Middle East what to do, the people there will sop up numerous Western ideas and goods, given the chance. Is this a good thing?

Actually the fanatics are against all Western ideas and goods......including kites!

I was referring to the general populace, not the fundamentalist wackos in charge. They are against it because, besides the possibility of spiritual corruption, it may sway the populace into not wanting to follow the religious hardline anymore. Yet, the fundamentalists DO use the high tech goods they rail against, if they're the only ones who can use or gain benefit from them.

Hard to tell, but the only people who have a problem with this are the Islamic clerics, religious leaders, and theocratic rulers, who stand to lose power if the people aren't afraid of the religious police or bogeymen anymore. And can anyone honestly defend many of the human rights violations that occur in the Middle East in the name of religion?

I already said I don't agree with it but I know I don't have the right to judge it.

And why don't you? For that matter, do you think the people over there have the right (moral, psychological, whatever not legal) to judge what others of their own kind do? If someone across the street from you was beating their wife and children to a bloody pulp everyday, and claiming it's his "custom" to do so, because his religion, people, whatnot say so, would you hold your tongue because you can't tell him he's wrong to do so, less you "offend" him? Custom is not concrete, nor is it sacred because it's "right", or "right" because it's "sacred".

No, he doesn't like us because he views Americans (arguably the icon of the West) as immoral, and the fact that they were stationed in the holy Land of Sand that is Saudi Arabia angered him. As for the US plundering other countries, do you have any condemnation for the governments and leaders who allow it (US installed puppets or not)? And what about governments that plunder their own nations?

What about them? I'm not advocating anyone. I'm stating that there is no excuse for any of what's happened but action bears with it the curse of reaction.

Why single out the US as the bad guy, when there are many governments that are just as bad, or worse, and cause more direct suffering than the US does? Or is it just because you "can't judge others"?

All thanx to good old thoughtful uncle Sam.

Who also provides lots of financial aid to the world, for all the non good it does.

Are you saying they feel guilty or that they are justifying all the wrong they do?

I'm saying the US is wasting money and resources on 3rd World countries that either dislike us half for good reasons and half because we provide a distraction from local problems for the government, or that use the aid for their military to keep the people oppressed.

They are the self proclaimed sheriffs of the world. The final word on what's right and wrong. Acceptable and unacceptable, true and false.

No, that would be the <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kop ... asp">UN</a>, who are trying to stop the leaking bucket that is the world with paper, while saying that their method is best, instead of getting a new bucket.

I totally agree on the new bucket.

[/quote]

Good, we agree on something.

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.

Care to expound on this some more?

[Wykith]

No, you seem to be pointing a finger at the US as being "the big troublesome brute", while ignoring the fact that everyone in the world, given the chance, would 99% percent likely do the same thing, and maybe even worse.

I know, so does that make them right?

I was referring to the general populace, not the fundamentalist wackos in charge. They are against it because, besides the possibility of spiritual corruption, it may sway the populace into not wanting to follow the religious hardline anymore. Yet, the fundamentalists DO use the high tech goods they rail against, if they're the only ones who can use or gain benefit from them.

So since they don't have it they're jealous and call it evil? Yes I know the fundamentalist want to keep everyone in an iron grasp. It's the same with the Catholic church.(Only they lost their grip)

And why don't you? For that matter, do you think the people over there have the right (moral, psychological, whatever not legal) to judge what others of their own kind do? If someone across the street from you was beating their wife and children to a bloody pulp everyday, and claiming it's his "custom" to do so, because his religion, people, whatnot say so, would you hold your tongue because you can't tell him he's wrong to do so, less you "offend" him? Custom is not concrete, nor is it sacred because it's "right", or "right" because it's "sacred".

I don't give a shit about offending anybody. But if you saw a Japanese man about to kill himself, would you pull the knife away from his hand and tell him he'll go to hell if he kills himself? In his eyes you are making him lose face and taking away his priveledge to die with honor. Who are you to say what's right?

Why single out the US as the bad guy, when there are many governments that are just as bad, or worse, and cause more direct suffering than the US does? Or is it just because you "can't judge others"?

Excellent. I'm not singleling out the U.S. I'm focusing on it. The reason being that so many americans are so ready to look down on others, I took the time to look down on them for a while.
And you are right. Other countries do cause more direct suffering than the US does. Funny word direct.

I'm saying the US is wasting money and resources on 3rd World countries that either dislike us half for good reasons and half because we provide a distraction from local problems for the government, or that use the aid for their military to keep the people oppressed.

First of all even I don't think that that money is being wasted on 3rd World countries. Second of all, they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their blessed hearts. When they help it's not for free. It always comes with the price of Americanization.

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.

Care to expound on this some more?[/quote]

Of course. Once again the U.S. is just as guilty of oppression as anyone else.

[kthulhu]

I was referring to the general populace, not the fundamentalist wackos in charge. They are against it because, besides the possibility of spiritual corruption, it may sway the populace into not wanting to follow the religious hardline anymore. Yet, the fundamentalists DO use the high tech goods they rail against, if they're the only ones who can use or gain benefit from them.

So since they don't have it they're jealous and call it evil? Yes I know the fundamentalist want to keep everyone in an iron grasp. It's the same with the Catholic church.(Only they lost their grip)

It's not a matter of jealousy at all. It's a matter of power, the fear of losing it, and the consequences of losing it.

And why don't you? For that matter, do you think the people over there have the right (moral, psychological, whatever not legal) to judge what others of their own kind do? If someone across the street from you was beating their wife and children to a bloody pulp everyday, and claiming it's his "custom" to do so, because his religion, people, whatnot say so, would you hold your tongue because you can't tell him he's wrong to do so, less you "offend" him? Custom is not concrete, nor is it sacred because it's "right", or "right" because it's "sacred".

I don't give a shit about offending anybody. But if you saw a Japanese man about to kill himself, would you pull the knife away from his hand and tell him he'll go to hell if he kills himself? In his eyes you are making him lose face and taking away his priveledge to die with honor. Who are you to say what's right?

Don't dodge. A single individual killing himself is, at base, hurting only himself, and can't be compared to the question I posed. I'm not religious, so the whole "going to hell thing" is bullshit for me, but I'd wonder why he's commiting suicide, and maybe make him reconsider. Beyond that, it's his own choice, and I wouldn't stop him if he absolutely had to go.

Who is to say what's right? No one and everyone is the true answer, but the bigger question is, if someone doesn't say what they think is right and wrong, then what? And, if I'm not to say what is right, and you aren't, then why complain about the right and wrong of what the US is doing? By your logic, you can't and shouldn't.

I'm saying the US is wasting money and resources on 3rd World countries that either dislike us half for good reasons and half because we provide a distraction from local problems for the government, or that use the aid for their military to keep the people oppressed.

First of all even I don't think that that money is being wasted on 3rd World countries. Second of all, they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their blessed hearts. When they help it's not for free. It always comes with the price of Americanization.

If the people accept it, then who is to say it's a bad price? No one is shoving Coca-Cola down their throats or stuffing McDonald's in their mouths, on pain of death.

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.

Care to expound on this some more?

Of course. Once again the U.S. is just as guilty of oppression as anyone else.

I'm not seeing the relation between your statements here.

And in my personal opinion, despite all your "US this, oppression that" rhetoric, you seem to have a very selfish way of thinking.

[Wykith]

It's not a matter of jealousy at all. It's a matter of power, the fear of losing it, and the consequences of losing it.

I know the fundamentalist want to keep everyone in an iron grasp. It's the same with the Catholic church.(Only they lost their grip)

I said that.

Don't dodge. A single individual killing himself is, at base, hurting only himself, and can't be compared to the question I posed. I'm not religious, so the whole "going to hell thing" is bullshit for me, but I'd wonder why he's commiting suicide, and maybe make him reconsider. Beyond that, it's his own choice, and I wouldn't stop him if he absolutely had to go.

So it's okay for someone to die for their beliefs as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process. I agree with that. Unfortunately that's not how things go. One person's decision will always affect those around him.

Who is to say what's right? No one and everyone is the true answer, but the bigger question is, if someone doesn't say what they think is right and wrong, then what? And, if I'm not to say what is right, and you aren't, then why complain about the right and wrong of what the US is doing? By your logic, you can't and shouldn't.

So are you debating why I think everyone has an equal right to their opinion or the fact that I focused on the U.S. for my examples?

If the people accept it, then who is to say it's a bad price? No one is shoving Coca-Cola down their throats or stuffing McDonald's in their mouths, on pain of death.

Actually, they are. In their politically correct indirect way of course, but with them it's "you want our help? Americanize or go shit a brick."

Yes, and Europe left a great legacy with its empires. Much of Africa's problems can be traced to the imperialist control, plundering, and subsistence infrastructure that France, England, Belgium, and other nations threw over the African continent, and the power vacuum that occured when the control was either thrown off or moved out. The Soviets, to my knowledge, did what we do and gave military aid to Communist friendly countries, which caused problems. Compared to the centuries of oppression and non progress that caused, the US seems rather tame.

Yeah, slavery now a days is pretty tame too. And no I'm not being sarcastic.

Care to expound on this some more?

Of course. Once again the U.S. is just as guilty of oppression as anyone else.

I'm not seeing the relation between your statements here.

Alright maybe I'm not understanding you then.

And in my personal opinion, despite all your "US this, oppression that" rhetoric, you seem to have a very selfish way of thinking.

I have to ask, is it because I'm displaying the wrongs of the evil empire?

[Mroni]

lOl this thread has gotten way out hand. Aethur all I'm going to do is ask you to tell me the difference between the Vietcong and the Nva.

I'm no spelling whore, but I think you got me wrong with Arthur from the round table
True, this is going a bit off topic, but nevertheless, it is an important and discussable discussion. But for the difference between Vietkong and Nva, as far as I know, and if I recall correctly, there is no real difference. It's just that the west refered to the Viet Minh (NVA) as the Vietkong.

Peace out,
~Aetherfukz

Sorry the vietkong were communist nuts siding with the Nva to fight the south. The Nva was the north vietnamese army.

Mr Oni

[Mroni]

Apperently you don't . The usa was the good guys in world war 2 moron only a retard would argue that. Our standing army was dick before world war 2 the soldiers sent to fight were all new recruits not professional killers. They had a job to do and they did it because Germany and japan started a war. Like I said before if you start a war you better be able to finish it. The british bombed Dresden yes it was horrible. But waaaahh war is hell. Dresden is a german city so it got what it deserved. Do you have a concept of justice? If somebody malicously killed your brother for no reason what would you do? Re the Germans and the japanese in word war 2 murderous bloodthirsty bastards. The russians weren't much better but Germany attacked them not vice versa.

I was responding to this. My point is...........no matter how many people died here in comparison to how many people died there is no justification for murder.
That you can say that 911 was the catalyst for the war on terrorism just like you can say that Pearl Harbor was the catalyst for U.S's involvement in WWII.
That is only however if you ignore that Pearl Harbor happened because of the embargo and 911 happened because of the U.S's occupation of the middle east.
No one "deserves" war. That's my point John. I hope I got it across this time.......I know I can talk in spirals but they usually all point to where I'm going.

When did the us occupy the middle east???? The middle east is made up of bunch of Monarchys that embrace radical islamic beliefs some more than others but all work together. But please tell me when have we occupied the middle east????? Also please remember that afghanistan is not part of the middle east. The oil embargo on Japan was right and just by any sane viewpoint why do you disagree with it?


Mr Oni

[Mroni]

I am leaving this discussion because It has gotten so out of hand. I cannot stand to read posts where the United states is portrayed as a lesser of two evils or the evil empire when in every circumstance it was right. The very fact that somebody especilally american citizens could think that the united states was wrong for fighting world war 2 or dropping the A bomb makes me so mad I was going to tell people things which are better left unsaid. My advice in general is to read before you speak. This is part of the reason I don't like Uncle milo because he is always worried about the real world and dosen't just chill. So I'm taking my chill pill and getting back to the thing that is anestethic to the real world ANIME!!! If you like Grave of the fireflys more power to you.

Mr Oni<--- An Otaku American who is totally proud of his country.

[Wykith]

When did the us occupy the middle east???? The middle east is made up of bunch of Monarchys that embrace radical islamic beliefs some more than others but all work together. But please tell me when have we occupied the middle east????? Also please remember that afghanistan is not part of the middle east. The oil embargo on Japan was right and just by any sane viewpoint why do you disagree with it?


Mr Oni

There are U.S. military instilations all over Afganistan and the middle east.
I'm not even gonna start with you Mr Oni. Your responses are too sporatic and baseless. Besides, I'm still trying to find even ground with kthulhu.

[Wykith]

By the way, I'm lovin' the debate but I'll have to get back to it on monday.
Have a nice weekend!

[jonmartensen]

Your (general) quotes are getting all sloppy. Clean up your acts.