When dubs don't match subs (what's the problem?)

[Sukunai]

I just had the pleasure of watching Lucky Star on dvd the other day.

And while the dvd is ok, and I managed to be ok with the english voices (I was sure worried I wouldn't be) I was actually irked by how the dub english, and the sub english is barely the same.

WTF. I would assume, that there is only one group actually translating for a dvd. So how is it they can render one set of dialogue in english, and be incapable of just printing what was said in english for the subs?

I mean, if they said it vocally, why should it be different in text?
Vocal english isn't magically different in text.

I've seen this result before in other animes, but never quite so in your face noticable before as in the case of Lucky Star dvd 1.

Doesn't ruin the experience one iota. But it does tend to make me wonder "what are the actually really saying in Japanese? Is it the vocal or the sub translation?"

[LantisEscudo]

Not to turn this into a sub vs. dub war, but I usually see the subtitles as being more literal to the Japanese, due to the need to adapt the spoken English version to the amount of time the VA has to say the line, and to the ADR director's vision of how to approach any given dub.

Directly subtitling the spoken English is known as "dubtitling" and most sub fans look down on it, mainly because it at least used to demonstrate laziness on the production studio's part, with poor and incorrect timing, inconsistent spellings, and various other problems. For example, the original release of Tokyo Babylon had the problem that several lines of dialogue had been inserted into the dub where there was no spoken Japanese, so there were subtitles popping up over silence or music at several points in the series.

I haven't seen the Lucky Star dub to judge how different the sub and dub translations are, but while there's usually only one group translating, there's two different groups putting it on the DVD. One just times and breaks up the lines into readable chunks for the subtitles, the other goes through the ADR staff before being recorded and tweaked for timing to the mouth movements. Other examples of significant changes being made to the dub while maintaining a more literal sub would be Voices of a Distant Star (changed significant amounts of the emotional content, added several explanatory lines) and Ghost Stories (which changed the tone of the series heavily).

So really, it's two adaptations of the same source. They may end up being very similar, or they could be very different. You may like one more than the other, or like them equally. It's all just personal tastes.

[BasharOfTheAges]

Basically what Lantis just said... the team putting subs on the DVD gets their copy of the translation and the VA team gets their copy. The VA team changes things, ad-libs., over-acts, etc. and ends up with something different. If the subs weren't literal or close to literal translations the fans get pissed, and the studios hear about it ad-nauseum at cons, through email, on internet forums, etc. The people that care about the subs being correct usually don't watch the dubs (on average) so, they're not complaining about that too.

[Sukunai]

Thanks for those comments.

Yes I had a local friend suggest about the same, although not as comprehensively

He made mention about the dub connecting with the mouth movement.

I wasn't sure that was critical or not.

For me, usually the only thing important with the dub, is do the voices sound too totally unJapanese in flavour.

Best example of bad dub has to be season 3 of Sailormoon. Oh god the horror.

[OmniStrata]

Those Who Hunt Elves

Best example of dub-lib.

If you've got a sense of humor [American Humor] mind you, then Dub would hit a wider audience.

I didn't see Lucky Star dubbed yet but if they have jokes that make English speakers laugh, then the VAs did their job.

I'm certain, 110%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if they just redubbed a Japanese context joke, the anime would probably lose a large amount of its flavor with the general public.

[BasharOfTheAges]

I'm certain, 110%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if they just redubbed a Japanese context joke, the anime would probably lose a large amount of its flavor with the general public.

Which is kinda funny, because that's the reason so few people thought it was going to get licensed in the first place.

[The Origonal Head Hunter]

I'm certain, 110%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if they just redubbed a Japanese context joke, the anime would probably lose a large amount of its flavor with the general public.

could always just include a pamphlet with the DVD that explains all the references, kinda like the little sections in the backs of some manga.

[Savia]

Excellent example of how to do it right:

In Azumanga Daioh, Osaka tries to make a joke where she claims she is presenting "bean knowledge" (a literalised term in Japanese meaning 'pointless trivia'). All her facts are about beans- the punchline she's looking for is "Hey, that's not bean-knowledge, that's knowledge about beans!".

In the English version of the translation (both sub and dub), the line is changed to "grains of truth" and the facts are about wheat. The new punchline is "That's not a grain of truth, it's the truth about grain!"

This phenomenon is particularly common in older movies or in very popular ones, where the thinking is that subtitles are in there for the hard of hearing that can't hear the dub that their friends and family are watching, and less the thought that it is for purists that prefer to watch foreign materials in their original language.

[Willen]

Generally, a joke that needs to be explained falls into the 'fail' department. Unless the joke is that you want the audience to go, "Huh?"

Watch enough old dubs and you'll run into a situation where the English performance is basically a straight reading of the literal translated Japanese script. They usually aren't much better than the dubs where the director and actors take more liberties. Sometimes, especially for comedies, the English adaptation is funnier to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all shows should be treated this way. But I enjoy the dubbed versions of Lupin III (Pioneer/Geneon) and Crayon Shin-chan as much as the subbed Japanese (for different reasons, of course).

Excel Saga has a few gags that are funny in a different way in the English version compared to the Japanese. One that I can remember is when Excel goes to America and she ends up looking like Sailor Moon.

Spoiler :

The joke in the Japanese version is that the Japanese actress playing Excel (Kotono Mitsuishi) also did the voice for Usagi (aka. Serena) in Sailor Moon. The dub makes a joke that the actress playing Excel (Larissa Wolcott) wanted to play the part of Sailor Moon (Usagi/Serena) but couldn't because it was being dubbed in Canada (and ADV is loacted in Texas, USA).

ADV's Super Milk-chan got both treatments. The version that was played on Adult Swim was faithful to the original Japanese and while I enjoyed it (mostly), I can see how most English-speaking viewers would have turned it off. Now, according to AnimeOnDVD's review, the US version comes with another disc with a drastically different adaptation that seems to be tailored to American tastes in comedy. I've never got around to renting Super Milk-chan and watching the other English dub/adaptation, but having seen the AS aired/faithful-to-the-original version, I suspect that taking some liberties with the script of this show would have made it at least more popular on US TV. Heck, Shin-chan got picked up for another season (and some of the changes for the English version are just plain WRONG, but in a good way).

If you have enough knowledge of Japanese culture you can probably get as much amusement (if not more) by watching the subbed version and getting the original jokes (plus the original vocal performances). I watched Lucky Star in Japanese without and with subtitles and even with my otaku knowledge, didn't get the full impact of a joke sometimes.

[BasharOfTheAges]

When I think about taking liberties in translation for comedic effect I think of Shin-chan actually. But at what point can you start saying it's actually not even the same show anymore? Much like a horrible 4kids edit, one could argue it's no longer the same series, merely a parody or derivative work of the original.