Most Helpful Member

Locked
User avatar
Fall_Child42
has a rock
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:32 pm
Status: Veloci-tossin' to the max!
Location: Jurassic Park
Org Profile

Re: Most Helpful Member

Post by Fall_Child42 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:42 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:
Fall_Child42 wrote:Just because there are natural reactions to stimuli does not automatically mean there is a way of objectively measuring "art".
Unless there's a sample outside of the people on this planet to compare to, the very meaning of objectivity is satisfied for our species in that case.

If you want to stick a label on art that says science doesn't apply (like some people do with religion) than that's your prerogative - just don't expect to be taken seriously.
You quite obviously didn't read the rest of my post.
I agreed that there are natural reactions to stimuli, and that most people may be affected in a similar fashion but that doesn't necessarily indicate the art is "good" or will be liked by an individual, and THAT's where the measuring the quality of art falls into complete subjectivity.
Image

User avatar
godix
a disturbed member
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2002 12:13 am
Org Profile

Re: Most Helpful Member

Post by godix » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:07 pm

Fall_Child42 wrote:I never said subjectivity could not be influenced by measurable events, it most certainly has to be
ob·jec·tiv·i·ty (ŏb'jĕk-tĭv'ĭ-tē) n.

1. The state or quality of being objective.
2. External or material reality.


Well, I'm glad we both agree that there objective aspects to personal taste then.
Since as I imagine your life and my life would be fairly different with different associations with different sounds and noises we might actually understand a tone differently. This is where I feel the subjectivity lies.
I never said subjectivity didn't exist in the matter. I said that the subjectivity of personal taste is limited by and influenced by a wide range of objective external things.
You keep saying that just because a group of people like something, then it indicates there is some measurable force removed from personal interpretation that will allow people to rate the "goodness" of art. This would mean that it would be possible to make some form of art that will be better then all others, and that everyone MUST like it.
It is technically possible to roll a six sided dice six billion times and a 1 each roll. It's just the odds if it happening are so small that most just dismiss the idea as impossible. In the same way it is technically possible to make a piece of art that all six billion humans have exactly the same reaction to and same opinion as to if it's 'good' or 'bad'. Again, the odds of it happening are so small that you are dismissing the idea as impossible. Just because the extreme outlier is, realistically speaking, impossible does not mean that fundamental principle is wrong. Rolling dice is still random chance even though you will never roll six billion 1's in a row. Personal taste is still influenced and guided by objective standards even though you will never create an artwork all six billion humans alive will agree is 'good'.
I will not argue against the ability to manipulate feelings using forms of rhetoric, because it is clearly possible. However, though a speech may make two people sad, one person may like the speech and one may hate it for that very reason. The ranking of the speech as being "good" is subjective even though the reactions may be controlled by human instinct.
There's an entire field behind writing a speech that will be perceived as 'good'. There are psychological studies on how people react to speeches, focus groups to test and refine the speech, certain flairs of speech that are considered good by a large majority, and centuries of examples of speeches that more than a simple random sampling of people consider 'good' to comb through. As I said earlier, if taste was purely subjective you would expect opinions of goodness to be randomly scattered all over the place, the fact there are certain tricks to speech that most would consider good is indicating objectivity right there. Just because we can't slap a number on it and say 'Obama's speeches are +21.6 while Bush's were +3.97' doesn't mean the field doesn't involve objectivity.

Also note that you, and until now I, are confusing and equating two things that should be measured separately. Enjoyment and quality are two different things. AMVs have objective standards to them, are they synced well, are there orphan frames, was scene choice appropriate, etc. In general I do not like drama AMVs and I do like comedy and dance AMVs, which is my subjective enjoyment factor. Put those two facts together and you end up with there are many drama videos I acknowledge as quality pieces of work, 'good art' if you will, even though I personally did not enjoy them. Similarly there are dance videos I enjoy even as I fully well realize they have flaws like wrong AR, orphan frames, or other mistakes which means they do not have a high quality. So while my subjective tastes guide my enjoyment the matter of quality and if a video is 'good' is separate and can be judged off objective standards.

As well even though my taste are subjective, they are influenced by objective matters. For example the reason I do not generally like drama videos is that in my life I have enough stuff that makes me feel sad so I do not want or enjoy an AMV that makes me feel sad. If the external reality that makes me feel sad disappeared (for example, if you died) then my subjective tastes very well may shift to where I would get more enjoyment out of videos that make me sad. So as we can see even the subjectivity of personal enjoyment are also influenced by objective things, although in ways less obviously so than with quality.
Image

User avatar
JazzyDJ
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Org Profile

Re: Most Helpful Member

Post by JazzyDJ » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:18 pm

godix wrote:Oh, and to aid JazzyDJ and a certain mod in understanding: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thanks! That helped! After all I'm the most unsure and illiterate person hear. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Gotta love it.
Number 1 on the Bottom 40

User avatar
Fall_Child42
has a rock
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:32 pm
Status: Veloci-tossin' to the max!
Location: Jurassic Park
Org Profile

Re: Most Helpful Member

Post by Fall_Child42 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:31 pm

godix wrote: As well even though my taste are subjective, they are influenced by objective matters.
I really don't think there is even a disagreement.

Though I still don't think "Good" can be measured outside of this particular genre, since so far I've been defining "good" as something that gives me enjoyment to watch, which as you said is subjective. Why would I consider something I didn't enjoy good?
Image

User avatar
Knowname
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2002 5:49 pm
Status: Indubitably
Location: Sanity, USA (on the edge... very edge)
Org Profile

Re: Most Helpful Member

Post by Knowname » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:10 am

and once again a dead horse cries out with laughter.

To Jasper, now don't be exposing all of our weaknesses at once ok?? :p lol twas a million times easier to write sarcasm than it is to understand it. But I agree, Godix has seriously gotten my consideration for most helpful next year.... though I expect some mod to deserve it more. Not challenging Godix to become a mod for that would SURELY bring forth the end of days. :lol: :lol: :lol:
If you do not think so... you will DIE

User avatar
godix
a disturbed member
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2002 12:13 am
Org Profile

Re: Most Helpful Member

Post by godix » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:13 am

Fall_Child42 wrote:Why would I consider something I didn't enjoy good?
Because you're not a dumbass? Well, not always.
Knowname wrote:and once again a dead horse cries out with laughter.
I need to find my dead horse sig.
But I agree, Godix has seriously gotten my consideration for most helpful next year....
It's early in the year, I got plenty of time to change your mind.
Image

User avatar
mirkosp
The Absolute Mudman
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:24 am
Status: (」・ワ・)」(⊃・ワ・)⊃
Location: Gallarate (VA), Italy
Contact:
Org Profile

Re: Most Helpful Member

Post by mirkosp » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:06 am

godix wrote:
But I agree, Godix has seriously gotten my consideration for most helpful next year....
It's early in the year, I got plenty of time to change your mind.
you'd get my vote either way. wethere for serious helpfulness or for joke purpose. so yeah, vote godix for most helpful vca 2010.
Image

Locked

Return to “2009 AnimeMusicVideos.org Viewers' Choice Awards”