Smokers

[BurningLeaves]

@BasharOfTheAges - I couldn't disagree with you more. You can't go a single day without hearing that this is bad for you then that is bad for you. Our Government shouldn't be given the right to control every single thing we eat, do, buy, consume etc. I'm fine with mandates to industry to ensure the safest products possible, warning labels on those that are not, but to punish those of us who don't automatically conform to everything in the new 'health' movement is ridiculous. Smoking is my choice, I don't push that choice on others, I adhere to all the rules put in place on where I can and can't smoke so why should I be punished for my life style choice? Were not talking about a small negligible tax here. You can buy a pack of Marlboros tax free at a reservation for $4.80, if you buy them where I live the tax brings the total to $7.65, if you buy them in the city they float around $10 a pack. Were talking about them doubling the price of the item simply because they don't like the fact that I've chosen to do it. The taxes are also steadily increasing because they feel they have the right to tax the people they disagree with literally whatever they choose to no limit. The fact that they can single out items and chose to tax them at a higher rate than the regulated state tax should not be allowed. It shouldn't be you pay 8.59% tax on every item in NY except for X,Y,Z because we just don't like them.

And the fact of them using the cigarettes as a gate way to make other ridiculous taxes seem less like were being taken for a ride is obvious. After the last big hike in cigarettes went through less than a week later they were on to the soda. After the soda it's going to be something else. Cleaning products because they hurt the environment, baby formula because it's better to breast feed.. Who knows whatever they can get away with and make us believe is a good thing when it's really just trying to take choices away from the consumer which is unfair to us as well as business.

But I really think it's not about them not liking smoking. I think in actuality with the amount of money the state makes off of the ridiculous taxes on cigarettes they must love smoking. I think they are simply using this to justify hiking taxes in areas consumers won't argue with. Not too many people raised a fuss over the smoking tax hike so as soon as they got away with that they moved on to something else. And they will continue to move on to something else so long as they can keep fooling people into thinking it's the right thing to do. Not everyone who drinks soda is obese, it is not the soda companies fault if some of it's customers are obese. Putting a tax on it will not stop obesity it will only hurt people who are struggling already to struggle even more. The only way something like that could even succeed would be if they taxed it to the point were people could no longer afford to do it (such as the increasing taxes on cigarettes are getting) and then it doesn't even become a choice any more you are then being forced into not purchasing a certain product not because the company hiked it's prices but because your government decided you were too poor to have it. If they really wanted to do something to help the obesity issue instead of hurting people they could do something to help them like pass a law saying all restaurants need to make their nutrition information available. I can buy a bottle of Pepsi and know exactly what I'm getting, if I stop to eat at a Checkers I'll have no idea. (Though I could only imagine =/) If anything it shows that all they actually care about is getting at your money and will use any excuse necessary to do so. The EMT/Fire and police you mentioned were funded and around long before these taxes came into play. As for the hospital bills going unpaid for smoking poses health risks clearly, but I'm sure not every unpaid hospital bill was left by a smoker, or even a smoker getting treated for smoking related conditions. Why should we have to foot the bill for everyone else when heath care is an issue that affects us all?

As for your points Godix I agree with everything you said minus for the tax breaks part. Once our money is in their hands it becomes theirs and the more I see it being passed back to help people who chose to better themselves the better. To me it's all about choice, I think it's great for the government to offer incentives to people looking to improve their lives, but I firmly disagree on people being punished for not conforming. And them trying to raise the price of cigarettes so high that I no longer am given a choice in the matter shouldn't be allowed. /tldr rant

[BasharOfTheAges]

@godix - my argument wasn't exactly for or against anything per-say, just a reality check that most libertarian thought seems to never get caught by. The realization that wanting to pay less money in taxes just means you're going to pick up the bill somewhere else. I suppose it's a bad as the conservative fallacy that no matter how much you tax businesses they'll find a way to fuck you over in the end, so why bother?

[guy07]

Why should I be punished for my life style choice?

Because once you guys adapt the socialist styled health care, some war veteran who lost a leg for his country now has to pay in part for your little hobby that will likely send you to the hospital at some point. The worse Americans health in general are the less money goes into schools and the like. And to be honest, this whole "Leave me along, I'll do whatever I want" attitude seems really immature. Humans in general need to start thinking on a bigger scale.
If you ask me, I'd be happy to see high taxes on everything that's bad for your health and see stuff like organic foods go way down in price.
Why is it I can buy a box of doughnuts for $1 but it costs $4 for a bag of organic salad? It's been argued many times that the reason health in poor areas is poor because they can't afford to eat right. Tax indulgence, then subsidize farms so it won't cost as much to buy food that's actually good for you. It seems rather simple and logical to me.

[BurningLeaves]

Guy I can see what you're getting at but as for A. We do not have universal medical care, so if I smoke and get an illness due to smoking I am still paying for it out of my own pocket. If I buy health insurance I then have to pay more for it due to the risk of my smoking, which I can understand. So these ridiculously hiked taxes are not going to my medical bills I am paying the taxes ALONG with any issues that may or may not arise due to my smoking. If we actually had universal health care and I wasn't stuck with that bill as well, and if the extra taxes were going right to medical care then it would be much more understandable. And B. The issue of $1 for donuts and $4 for salad was something I addressed in my first post and I agree with you. But they aren't lowering the price of the salad down to make it more affordable to people they are raising the price of the donuts up so if you could only afford the donuts before.. well now you just can't afford anything. If they actually cared they would give tax breaks to the salad to lower it's cost and allow more people to eat foods that haven't been ridiculously processed with cheap ingredients that add to the problem of obesity. But they don't actually care they just pretend like they do to fool people into looking the other way when they add these tax hikes.

[godix]

These are side issues, but I'm bored...

As for your points Godix I agree with everything you said minus for the tax breaks part. Once our money is in their hands it becomes theirs and the more I see it being passed back to help people who chose to better themselves the better. To me it's all about choice, I think it's great for the government to offer incentives to people looking to improve their lives...

You do realize that the primary reason the economy blew up is that the government encouraged people who couldn't afford to buy houses to purchase houses anyway? Once the housing market took a shitter, all that bad debt that the government actively encouraged took down everything else with it. Although the banks have plenty of blame themselves, the fundamental issue was that some people just don't earn enough to own a house and the fed were encouraging them to do so anyway.

@godix - my argument wasn't exactly for or against anything per-say, just a reality check that most libertarian thought seems to never get caught by. The realization that wanting to pay less money in taxes just means you're going to pick up the bill somewhere else. I suppose it's a bad as the conservative fallacy that no matter how much you tax businesses they'll find a way to fuck you over in the end, so why bother?

Ah. In general I would agree that libertarians tends to miss reality, it's actually why tend to not identify myself as libertarian. I actually am, but I view other libertarians about the way sane republicans look at the tea party or sane dems look at dailykos.

If you ask me, I'd be happy to see high taxes on everything that's bad for your health and see stuff like organic foods go way down in price. Why is it I can buy a box of doughnuts for $1 but it costs $4 for a bag of organic salad?

Organic food sold in markets are roughly the same as non-organic food of the same type. Also keep in mind that organic is not the same as healthy. For example, hemlock is 100% organic...

[guy07]

Having this argument with someone from a different country is too difficult ... i don't know enough about how things work in the US i guess. I know there's been talk about lowering organic prices here by taxing indulgences but i'm not sure how that's going.
While we're on the topic, the gov here decided to raise taxes to 15% in ontario on some stuff, including gym memberships but exempt fast food under $4. So now it's probably going to cost more to stay in shape, and less to buy junk food. That's a little counter productive ... wait, what was this thread about again?

[BasharOfTheAges]

Guy I can see what you're getting at but as for A. We do not have universal medical care, so if I smoke and get an illness due to smoking I am still paying for it out of my own pocket. If I buy health insurance I then have to pay more for it due to the risk of my smoking, which I can understand. So these ridiculously hiked taxes are not going to my medical bills I am paying the taxes ALONG with any issues that may or may not arise due to my smoking. If we actually had universal health care and I wasn't stuck with that bill as well, and if the extra taxes were going right to medical care then it would be much more understandable.

Well, that's you who would actually pay for your health care. Currently people that can't don't. They don't go without either. They go to the emergency rooms where they're treated free of charge. Something about some Hippocratic oath. The expenses they cause, get woven into your costs, resulting in higher premiums.

At the very least, these taxes prevent the poorest among us from being able to afford to smoke more and get the health complications that result in more cost-differed ER care. I'm not passing judgment on how that should make you feel, just pointing out the logic behind it all. They're not laws meant to push a way of life, they're cold hard economic logic packaged in a way that non-governmental ideologues on both sides use as talking points to rally around. Here's something that'll blow your mind, though... just about every law is like that to some degree - Based in logic and spun for PR purposes.

[Garylisk]

Organic food is bullshit. Show me a single reputable large-scale study that shows otherwise.

[godix]

At the very least, these taxes prevent the poorest among us from being able to afford to smoke more and get the health complications that result in more cost-differed ER care. I'm not passing judgment on how that should make you feel, just pointing out the logic behind it all.

Because economics has done such a good job of keeping poor people from drinking, gambling, or doing recreational drugs.

Besides, it's not making cigarettes artificially expensive with taxes could create an underground black market. That could never happen.

fair warning, last link is a god damned piece of shit adobe PDF and as such might crash and burn, as adobe products are likely to do
Me? Bitter about Adobe Premiere crashing and losing hours of editing? Never!

[ZephyrStar]

Organic food sold in markets are roughly the same as non-organic food of the same type. Also keep in mind that organic is not the same as healthy. For example, hemlock is 100% organic...

It's the "roughly" that's the problem. The other problem is that there's a lot of so called organic stuff out there that still gets processed and covered in preservatives. So even if it was raised organic, that doesn't mean they didn't "enhance the flavor." I tend to do things like buy all my fruits/veggies from farmers markets whenever possible. Is it 100% organic? Maybe not, but goddamn it tastes better.