2008 Judge's Choice Awards - Aftermath/Suggestions/Comments

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2008 Judge's Choice Awards - Aftermath/Suggestions/Comments

Post by Koopiskeva » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:28 pm

Hey there guys,

Now that the 2008 Judge's Choice Awards have now ended. I'd like to know people's thoughts on it - any aspect of it really. I'd like to know how to make it better for next year and to gain even more interest as an official contest of sorts.

Please post your thoughts here so I can look them over and possibly be able to address issues which may or may not have existed, or just suggestions on how to make it better for next year.

Generally though I'd like to see the following:
- More participation
- Perhaps a larger judging panel? 10?
- Bigger party?

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Post by inthesto » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:56 pm

More Gaytorade.
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Post by Fall_Child42 » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:57 pm

inthesto wrote:More Gaytorade.
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Post by AquaSky » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:02 pm

It's off to a good start. I'd second the notion for a larger judging panel, if only because it would give a better sampling and add in a little more diversity. I dug most of the winners, but except for one, it was all stuff I'd seen before. And this was one of the years where I barely kept up with videos except for the AWA showings. So it'd be nice to see a few new videos in the mix, because I'm sure there are worthy non-mainstream picks out there also. Maybe expanding it beyond just the VCA semifinalist list would help things a bit.
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Post by Koopiskeva » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:11 pm

IcyCloud wrote:Maybe expanding it beyond just the VCA semifinalist list would help things a bit.
The list actually included 2 videos from each judge that they were allowed to 'add' to any category. So, a total of 10 more videos aside from those in the semi-finalists - which already had an average of about 20 per category. Which was quite a bit of videos that the judges could choose from.
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Post by Moonlight Soldier » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:06 pm

If you keep doing this, you should probably have a max number of times someone can be a judge.

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Post by Bauzi » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:02 pm

I hope that there will be again and bigger JCAs next year. Cool stuff.

Thx to Koop for organising and thx to the judges for theire time!
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Post by Darius GQ » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:02 pm

....I didn't like this competition in general....
Truly, the idea is GREAT but the realization of it is not perfect.
I am not satisfied with judges or experts discussion. There were people who know each other well and, excuse me, they have easily pushed up their proteges & friends…(nothing personal. It is my opinion and feelings only)....
btw - how Godix could became a judge?! he is the most subjective son of the bitch I've ever seen.... this is the BIGGEST BulLSHIT of the year.....

What I have suggested to change in next year:

1) the judge or expert cannot be the person, who takes part in competition as a clip creator;

2)to invite or choose 6 judges or experts from the different countries. It seems to me would be more fair...

....And now I do not consider the JCA is more objective competition than VCA…
sorry Koop, but this year JCA<VCA

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Post by Illia Sadri » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:25 pm

I will second is that it is hard to give credit when many if the winning videos were by people who did participate in judging. It gives the feeling of it being ultimately an insular group dominating.

Basically, people will know one another and thus it is impossible to eliminate that factor, but people in the semifinals should not be involved in voting. Get respectable people who do not have a video participating to judge. I also agree with just a larger sampling simply to encompass different views of what makes a good video.

I also agree with expanding it from the VCA semifinalists (even as a dominant basis) because ultimately lets be honest in that it is a name game. Poeple nominate the names that are well known and vote for those they know. While many if the videos in the VCA finals are very good, there are many others that are not given quite the same attention partially because the editor is lesser known and might not submit to the major contests. I am all for giving those videos opportunities as well to compete.

the idea is certainly sound and I like having a counter to the VCA's (which I typically strongly disagree with most of the winners), but I do feel that there is a bit of refining to do on the matter. Of course asking alone so soon after is one of the best signs for this.

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Post by Fall_Child42 » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:54 pm

Not to agree or disagree, but instead to clarify...

Those with a video in the semifinals and who were also a judge for the JCAs were NOT allowed to vote for the category their video was in.

for example, AtomX was NOT allowed to vote for sentimental or romance etc.

This is more of an argument for a larger judge pool though, so that if some judges are eliminated because the have a video in any one category, than the votes don't become too concentrated on a few votes.

The larger the population sample the closer one becomes to the true mean</statistics>
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Post by Nessephanie » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:57 pm

Darius GQ wrote:1) the judge or expert cannot be the person, who takes part in competition as a clip creator;
The judges who were nominated weren't allowed to vote in the categories they were nominated in. Personally that was good enough to keep it fair. More judges though could make this better. Then when one of the judges can't vote, it wouldn't effect the numbers are much.
Darius GQ wrote:2)to invite or choose 6 judges or experts from the different countries. It seems to me would be more fair...
I think the judges were pretty diverse this year...I mean four out of the five judges were from different countries. That's only one step away from what you suggest.

As well, the judges aren't invited, they're voted in by everyone. Limiting it down to who can be voted for seems like it would make the contest less fair...As long as the judges can't vote in the categories their nominated in, it's fair game.


I think overall the contest ran pretty smoothly for the first time around ^^ I do think that more judges next time would be a good idea in general, but that all depends on the amount of participation.

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Post by Koopiskeva » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:06 pm

Darius GQ wrote:....I didn't like this competition in general....
Truly, the idea is GREAT but the realization of it is not perfect.
I am not satisfied with judges or experts discussion. There were people who know each other well and, excuse me, they have easily pushed up their proteges & friends…(nothing personal. It is my opinion and feelings only)....
btw - how Godix could became a judge?! he is the most subjective son of the bitch I've ever seen.... this is the BIGGEST BulLSHIT of the year.....
The judges were selected anonymously via a poll:
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/v ... hp?t=86061

All the people in the polls were nominated by those that chose to participate:
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/v ... hp?t=85800

In the end, nobody knew, except for me, who the selected judges were. The judges decided on each category on their own, and they did not know who each other were. There was no 'discussion' between the judges - I had asked them to leave comments on the videos per category. It was all blind judging in the context that they were not told who the other judges were, nobody knew who the judges were, and they didn't know what the current poll standings were for each video.

So, basically your comment on 'There were people who know each other well and, excuse me, they have easily pushed up their proteges & friends…(nothing personal. It is my opinion and feelings only)....' is incorrect.

While you think certain people were not 'good enough to be a judge' thats how the votes went. It can't be helped that certain parts of the community did not participate enough to get their votes heard. It's a first year thing - so I advertised as much as could on every ground I was familiar with. It can't be helped that its mostly a-m-v.org based - as it is the largest ground to start on.
Darius GQ wrote: What I have suggested to change in next year:

1) the judge or expert cannot be the person, who takes part in competition as a clip creator;
The fact is, that is quite difficult to do unless the editor's themselves chose not to participate in the VCA/JCA altogether - just like I did. To alleviate from this damaging the results, all judges were not allowed to vote in any category that they were in. This removed the possible 'bias' that they may have had to vote towards their own videos.
Darius GQ wrote: 2)to invite or choose 6 judges or experts from the different countries. It seems to me would be more fair...
As outlined here:
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/v ... 59#1096759
The 5 judges actually come from 4 different countries. 2 of which are American, but considering that the largest population of AMV editors comes from the US, it was bound to be the case. I hope to add even more judges for next year's panel so perhaps even more countries would end up being selected.

I do think you rushed into your own conclusions about how the JCA is run without reading the fine print. If you disagree with the end result, then thats fine, but don't assume how the contest was run without reading about it first.
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Post by Brad » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:08 pm

I suppose it's pretty hard to take my comments seriously considering that of the 5 judges that entered, I ended up winning 3 awards. I can certainly see how it can be perceived as in-voting or what-have-you. It should be noted however that we were not allowed to vote in categories that we were nominated in. It should also be doubley-noted (as Jay already pointed out) that the nominees weren't primarily restricted to VCA semifinalists since we had the opportunity to include other un-nominated videos. So the field was very open.

As far as the whole in-voting idea goes, I can't speak for the other judges, but I know that I gave fair votes to every video and I sat down and watched every single nominated video and judged them on my own personal basis, which was a combination of technical merit, artistic/creative merit, and simply visceral enjoyment, which is a factor I think a good number of people don't factor in. Take Magic Pad for example. A lot of prominent editors like to rail on Magic Pad because it feels like his other videos and isn't "groundbreaking" or whatever. I can agree with both points, but the fact still remains that I still enjoy watching it quite a bit. It's got flow, it's got style, it's got good scene selection, everything just works very well. In terms of JCA justification (it winning Best Multiple-Anime), it did a fantastic job of blending a wide variety of sources together to make something seamless and simply fun to watch. Basically, I voted for the videos that I thought deserved to win, and not on WHO deserved to win.

Now when it comes to what I think should change, I do think adding to the number of judges would help make it a broad spectrum of well-informed opinions. As far as putting a restriction on who can be a judge would be very tricky. For one, the people who are TYPICALLY (as in, not making a set in stone rule here) best suited for a position like this are people that have a lot of experience with editing, have seen a lot of videos, have been around for a while, and thusly can see a video for many different facets. Typically these people end up making videos throughout the year, and typically their videos end up making it into the VCA semifinals. It's just the nature of the beast. Again, THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT NOBODY ELSE WOULD MAKE A GOOD JUDGE. Take Quadir for example. He's been running the AMV Reviews and obviously he seems to have a pretty well-informed opinion (even if it might vary from other people's), even though he's not an editor. You also have people who simply haven't been editing for quite a while but still know quite a bit about the artform (Take AbsoluteDestiny, NightOwl, Kusoyaro, etc. for example). However, I think that restricting it to these individuals would be a mistake, since I do think current familiarity with what's going on with the hobby makes a difference. So what I'm saying is, I like the idea of a wide variety of opinions and reasonings.

The inherent problem comes with the judge selection. I think we need to come up with a more balanced way of doing it. Unfortunately I don't really have any good ideas for how to do this, but it's something to think about.

Overall, I think the JCA results were balanced, grounded, and successful. Congrats to the winners :)
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Post by Koopiskeva » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:22 pm

Illia Sadri wrote:I will second is that it is hard to give credit when many if the winning videos were by people who did participate in judging. It gives the feeling of it being ultimately an insular group dominating.


As been said, the judges were not allowed to judge in the category they were in.
Illia Sadri wrote:Basically, people will know one another and thus it is impossible to eliminate that factor, but people in the semifinals should not be involved in voting. Get respectable people who do not have a video participating to judge. I also agree with just a larger sampling simply to encompass different views of what makes a good video.
A larger panel will be possible, but to ask every one of the judges not to participate in the voting would also be skewed. Let's face it, anybody who is anybody in this hobby will have made a video within that year that'd be up for contention. To ask them not to participate would skew the overall results anyway because we'd be taking out their possibly superior videos from the contest. I believe that just by not allowing the judges to vote in the category they are in is much more feasible without causing the results to be further skewed.
Illia Sadri wrote:I also agree with expanding it from the VCA semifinalists (even as a dominant basis) because ultimately lets be honest in that it is a name game. Poeple nominate the names that are well known and vote for those they know. While many if the videos in the VCA finals are very good, there are many others that are not given quite the same attention partially because the editor is lesser known and might not submit to the major contests. I am all for giving those videos opportunities as well to compete.
This is partly why there was supposed to be a 'video nomination' round aside from just picking those from the semi-finalists - but even still. I had made it so the judges were allowed to 'add' 2 video in any category of their choosing to be voted on by the others. As it stands - there are about 20 videos per category based on the semi-finalists. Where would this line need to be? Sadly, there is no one person that has seen everything and can know every video that has been out. I believe the semi-finalists of the VCAs does a good job of rounding up most of the videos that truly have a chance of winning. Note- none of the videos that the judges 'added' came even close to winning in their respective categories.
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Post by Vlad G Pohnert » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:40 pm

I do have to agree that it's best to have a full selection of judges even if they might not be able to vote for a few categories that they are in that possibly only ones that don't take part...

I know from my AMV contest panel of judges I run, there is a bit more logistics involved in having many judges as it's hard for everyone to commit to watching so many AMVs in a relatively short time, however maybe adding a few more, say 7 or 8 might be a good idea.. I think anymore after that starts to become a mini VCA type arrangement

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