AMV Contests - This whole trolling issue

Org Profile · Post by **Vlad G Pohnert** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:19 pm

Ok, I don’t want to take a thread into the wrong direction so I’ve started a new one in what I feel is the appropriate group since this topic of trolling at conventions needs to be discussed and is very relative to the state of where contests and us creators are going…. I’ve also noticed so many different opinions and some upset people over this as well.

I thing the term trolling holds too many meaning to everyone here as well as how contests define it. From some of the definitions I heard, I guess I an considered to be a troll for some of my videos as well but at no time do I think I’ve considered myself a troll by my definitions that is (You’ll see what I mean)… So, here goes my view on the whole thing regardless If I get flamed for it or not….

Before I discuss things further, I might as well define what I in my opinion (Pease keep in mind the is MY OPINION ONLY) consider not to be Trolling:

NOT Trolling:
- If you enter into a multiple contests with overlapping deadline to a reasonable limit (for me it’s 2 - 4 max (depending on the contest), but this can be different for others – what exactly is reasonable???)
- If the contest does not have a problem with tolling as mentioned in the rules and does not mind your submission (No one is forced to enter into a contest that they do not agree with the rules).
- If you win in a contest, but it’s the only contest you’ve entered and you enter one additional contest after you know of your win (North America is a HUGE continent, it’s a BIG audience out there).
- You win, say 2 awards, after the submission deadline of a third con that you have submitted to (I personally think to withdraw after the deadline when the judging process is already happening can hurt or complicate the contest – Think about, say 5 contestants doing that after all the work go into making and sending judging tapes out!)
- I don’t consider winning online only contests the same thing as winning at a convention, there is no “Public” audience involved and can be way to diverse to consider it IMO (A group of friends could make up a contest and have winners from themselves so how valid is that?) I’m not stating an opinion about if an online contest of better or worse, just consider them not comparable or same thing as a Convention contest.

I’m sure this is not the same opinion everyone else has out there, and I’m sure some will agree and consider something I’ve said as trolling. I do want to point out that that has been videos over the years that have fallen into one or more of the above point I’ve made and never has anyone mentioned that they were tolling… Just an observation rather than an opinion.

Now, I do agree that it’s important for us to voice our opinion and concerns about trolling, or when we may consider a video to be trolling, but is it up to us to enforce no trolling? This is the big question and my whole point…

Now I’m not going to try to point out what we should do or shouldn’t do, but what I feel we would consider about this whole issue since:

- The AMV community and contest our there are continuing to mushroom at a HUGE rates, more and more conventions are now running contests and tons of overlapping deadlines, so will this problem become worse?
- As we evolve and continue forward, will our views and opinion on trolling change?
- What do we care about more, winning or having our videos shown to audience?
- Is trolling also considered for the same people always take a finalist spot in contests even for different videos?
- Show all contest have the rules that if must not have been seen anywhere and you have to be present to win? If so, how will it impact conventions and people who can’t come to them and is this being unfair the some (consider someone living in a country where they can’t get a visa to visit the North America)? Also, if this what the community wants contest to do and if so who will enforce it?

In summary, I just want to point out that this is not a Black and White issue by far and that it’s always easy to take sides in this without considering the consequences or true intentions. Now I know I may be flamed for my opinion, but I stand by it and this also applies to any contest I run as well. I really hope it doesn’t have to come down to AMV contest having to make 3 pages of rules just on trolling so they don’t get flamed or misunderstood by creators entering…

Vlad

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:41 pm

Vlad G. Pohnert wrote:In summary, I just want to point out that this is not a Black and White issue

Totally stealing my lines from our conversation

All I have to say is the same as I did in the Otakon thread. This is not a black or white issue, the decision comes down to each editor and whether they feel they have received enough recognition, other editor's getting some credit, just what reasons they make AMVs for and so on. They need to take this into consideration and be respectful to the wishes of the community.

By the same token, the community needs to realize that the "definition" of trolling is not this "If X contests + Y awards = troll." Given we can state our opinions in a calm and logical fashion (which for the most part has been occurring) in this forum, however need to respect the choices a creator makes.

Basically what I'm getting at is that it's all relative and there is no right or wrong answer like people seem to be wanting.

I have my own definition of trolling and follow them for myself and you have your own. I can obviously not agree with it, but at the same time, I can't entirely judge you since there is no SET definition.

Regardless, for the most part I agree with Vlad's statement since well...I already talked to him about this an hour ago...even stealing my lines

Org Profile · Post by **Vlad G Pohnert** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:58 pm

dwchang wrote:
Regardless, for the most part I agree with Vlad's statement since well...I already talked to him about this an hour ago...even stealing my lines

Well, I was writting is before that... But really, in the end it means we agree upon some aspects of our opinion on the topic

Vlad

TaranT · Post by **TaranT** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:57 am

All this text on the other threads about trolling seems really self-centered..or rather, centered on AMV creators. And yet the audience at any contest is almost entirely made up of non-creators (except maybe at AWA and JACON). These are people who have paid the admission fee and just might (might!) expect a show with some level of quality and entertainment.

They don't care if a video won awards at half a dozen contests thousands of mile away. They don't care if it was made by someone in town or on the next continent. They might, in fact, want to see the season's hot video, the one that has the Internet buzz...even if it is a "troll".

It's up to the contest organizers to make the judgement on what is the best way to collect entries for their contests. Each one is different and they're in a position to know better than anyone. But the entertainment value to the audience should be the primary issue. AMV contests, after all, are only one part of an anime convention.

pmfreak · Post by **pmfreak** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:47 am

Let me get this straight. Let's making my "Without GTO" video as an example.

I submitted to four cons as of now (ACen, AKon, AX, and AE), BUT it still didn't win an award. Does it count as trolling yet?

SarahtheBoring · Post by **SarahtheBoring** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:18 am

TaranT wrote:All this text on the other threads about trolling seems really self-centered..or rather, centered on AMV creators. And yet the audience at any contest is almost entirely made up of non-creators (except maybe at AWA and JACON). These are people who have paid the admission fee and just might (might!) expect a show with some level of quality and entertainment.

They don't care if a video won awards at half a dozen contests thousands of mile away. They don't care if it was made by someone in town or on the next continent.

As a viewer and not a con-level AMVer, I have to agree with this. To us, you are entertainers. It's about the videos. It's not about you and your <s>egos</s> awards. Otherwise AMV showings would not be open to the public, conducted behind closed doors with a panel of experts.

If this is causing people such torture, maybe AMVers could pressure cons to have separate "public" and "competition" divisions more often.

(Yay, I got all the way through the post without expressing my unfiltered opinion. Go, me.)

iserlohn · Post by **iserlohn** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 7:58 am

pmfreak wrote:Let me get this straight. Let's making my "Without GTO" video as an example.

I submitted to four cons as of now (ACen, AKon, AX, and AE), BUT it still didn't win an award. Does it count as trolling yet?

I wouldn't say so, because 1)all those contests are spread way out geographically, and more importantly, 2)it hasn't won anything yet. The video that's caused all this controversy has won three awards, two of them in the same region, which means audiences are starting to blend and locals haven't gotten their chance.

I have to admit, I agree with what Anneke said about the issue on the ML - we wouldn't have nearly this kind of problem if cons had rules saying that submitters had to be registered for the con (not even in attendence, just buy yourself a badge, you can even get it mailed afterwards if you want). At $30-50/entry, I doubt we'd see nearly the duplication between contests, unless the creator was someone like Kevin Lillard.

I also agree with what Ashyukun said, that non-competing entries should be allowed in for free. If all you really want is to get your video shown, most cons (at least out east) do their best to show every submission sometime during the con. This is also more fair when dealing with smaller cons - the locals can take home the prizes and the people who are sending in "help me we need to fill two hours" requests still get the exposure.

anneke · Post by **anneke** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:36 am

Now I don't think AMV contests will start charging for submitting. (However they could, and alot of other types of contests out there do charge a fee for submissions.) I'm saying that for now if you want a basis for if you should enter a video to a contest or not, ask yourself if you would be willing to spend $40 to enter that contest. You look at how many contests you've entered it into already, and ask yourself is it worth it to spend another $40 to enter it to that convention. Maybe Yes because your going to be there, or you like the convention (a friend is running the contest), etc... Maybe No, you've gotten several awards for you 'money' already, your not going to be there, etc... If you put money behind things (even in just your thinking), it makes things a little easier to come to a decission.

I'm also a person who highly supports and pushes for that conventions need to have AMV Exhibition time in their schedules. So that all videos entered get to be seen. It's so annoying to go to a convention, spend sometimes hundreds of dollars, and your video isn't even shown. If you entered the art show, even if your art doesn't sell, it was atleast seen by people. If your a cosplayer, if you don't win the masquerade atleast you get seen. If you don't even enter the masquerade you can still get scene in the halls. AMV creators only get their stuff seen at some/several/alot of conventions if they make the AMV contests. I want to see more local creators getting their videos onto the big screen.

Now one thing I also see, is that AX, Otakon, and AWA are sort of the grand masters of AMV contests, so I can see people outside the 'local' creators entering.

Ofcourse I think I've been more frustrated by 'trolls' and non-locals taking up spaces in contests, because on the West Coast we have only 3 contests. If you take AX away (open it up) as to being a grand masters contest, where non-locals can enter. That leaves us with only 2 contests, and well last year one contest didn't happen, giving us 1 contest for all the 'local' West Coast creators. Big difference from East Coast.

Anneke

dwchang · Post by **dwchang** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:47 am

After reading through this and the Otakon thread, I guess I'll reply. I would like to mainly address the "non-competing" entry thing and fees.

Basically I, to a degree, agree with this fee or required attendence for the major cons. One thing that I agree with Vlad is that the smaller cons NEED videos and thus take from just about anyone. However, the bigger cons can afford to take entries from only people attending the con. I mean hell they already get like 180 entries as it is. I'm sure you could cut that down to like 60 - 70 entries and I guarantee it won't effect the quality of the contest.

At the same time, this would make the contest a hell of a lot more enjoyable for the creators in attendence since they will see their work on the big screen, hear the reaction and so on. I personally don't submit to cons I don't go to that often since I hate thinking that my video might be the one that knocks out a video of someone in attendence. It would really suck to pay that much money (and some times even take a trip) and then not see your video.

Now I do concede the point that for smaller contests, this would present a problem since the quality of entries would decrease, but again I am only talking about bigger cons where a substantial amount of "good" creators will be submitting and thus the quality will not diminish.

Now before I state this next statement, please keep in mind that I in no way want to offend anyone with this statement. These are just my thoughts on it and are NOT set-in-stone (obviously):

To me, it looks like 80 - 90% of contest submitters agree that they just want to have their videos shown at conventions correct? That's at least what it appears to be within the threads and whatnot right? Well, if that's the truth, why don't they just submit to "non-competing" after winning a few awards. I think the fact that some creators have submitted to 6+ contests, even after winning a few awards (ALL COMPETING) kind of shows that obviously just having it shown is NOT the main goal.

As I said above, this is just my opinion, but it just looks like to me that a lot of people need to re-evaluate what they are saying and why exactly what are submtting. It's not wrong to say "I am submitting because I want to win more awards." I just dislike seeing people say one thing and then do another.

Basicaly what I am suggesting to creators is to back-up what you say or say something different. If you only want it to be shown...you know you're allowed to send it in as a non-competing entry and it can still be shown you know?

Obviously to require the creator be in attedence (or a fee...which is sort of the regsistration badge right?), you will limit the # of trolls and the creators at the convention and in the contest will be happier. Again, I do acknowledge that the primary person to please is the audience since the contest is ultimately a form of entertainment and thus why my statements only apply to the bigger contests.

Even if this is not the answer, I think the rules do need to be re-worked since, I hate to say it, but the patterns of trolling and things like it have been increasing and it will only continue to do so. I particularly like ACen and JACON's rules with trolling. It obviously did not make the contest any less enjoyable for the audience. I might also add that both contests were *very* strong in competition.

Another thing I'd like to reiterate is that, the definition 'troll' is diffferent to all of us and it is not up to us the community to decide if a video IS trolling since there is no set definition (unless it is in the rules specifically). It is ultimately up to the creator of the video (and the contest) to realize when they have received enough recognition and retire the video.

HOWEVER, since all of us have our own definitions of trolling, we can of course discuss these seperate definitions with each other in a calm and non-flamatory fashion (which for the most part we are doing). Now of course, we are all human and can't help, but judge based on our own definitions, HOWEVER we CANNOT say this IS a troll and whatnot since the definition is not set (I hope this is making sense). All we can do it have our opinion and well...let them do what they want (within the context of the rules).

Basically what I am getting at is that no matter how much we discuss this, the decision ultimately occurs on the contest side and that of the creator. Now of course we can disagree and be disgusted with a particlarly video, but we have no right to say this IS right or wrong. It's not set-in-stone.

Now can we discuss (not have the communit judge) a video and if it is a troll to us: Sure, so long as it's calm and reasonable.
Can we condemn them for it? No.
Can they troll if it's within the rules? Yeah
Can we get angry? Sure

Ack this post makes no sense.

BogoSort · Post by **BogoSort** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:17 am

Just out of curiosity, what's with all of this local amv creator stuff? Why do we need to cater to them? Just because they happen to live close to a particular con to compete in doesn't mean that we should stop other people elsewhere from competing against them. Last I checked, there was no such amv contest region structure, where vids can start at the local level, then move up to the state level, and then up to Nationals and finally Worlds. If an amv contest doesn't want this sort of thing to happen at it, then they can define their trolling rules to move vids that have won awards into a non-competing category. Let the contest organizers decide how they want to run things, and provide input not demands and explicit instructions on how you think they should run amv contests.

Then again, as far as I can tell, I think some of the people who are crying foul are the ones who are lesser known amv creators who are dissatisified with their lack of popularity, and instead of working on making newer and hopefully better amvs, they've turned to beating down other amv creators who they feel might be on the track to becoming popular. Just because a vid wins at one con doesn't mean that it will win everywhere else. Audiences are different, and they are amused by different things. Besides, if your goal is to win prizes(and there's nothing wrong with that), the prize is only as valuable as the other things that you were competing against. Let's see now, I'm going to start my own con right here called BogoCon, start an amv contest, and amazingly enough, my own Otakon vid is the only submission. I think I'm going to hand it the awards of:
Best Drama
Best Action
Best Parody
Best use of gaudy^H^H^H^H^H digital effects
Bogo's Pick
Best in show

Wow, it's like the video didn't suck! But these awards don't mean anything to anyone, because there were no other good videos competing. That's why the big name cons have a high status. Out of so many excellent entries, there's one video that wins, and that's an achievement to be proud of. Personally it's an honor for me to even be considered on the same slate as all sorts of other excellent vids, because that implies to me that my entries are at the same level.