end of Evangelion (episodes 25 and 26) - confused

[Kracus]

but hey, who needs a thought provoking examination of life and its meanings when you can watch NERV get all shot up?

Seeing as how nothing they put in 25 and 26 tv series, it new or thought provoking, why not?

And before someone takes what I said in a completely wrong manner. I said not thought provoking because for someone who doesn't have any of the problems Shinji had, those ideas are thought provoking but rather known or everyday common experience.

Really it didn't answer anything, it just made more questions pop up that I think of from time to time, but the series doesn't actually provide a better view but rather the same.

[UncleMilo]

[rant]Also, for those who like to mention the creator of the series and use them as a reason against something in the series; I have this to say: so what? I can say he or she sold out cause they made EoE. A bunch of fans don't like something I did, so what. I'm making money, oh well I guess I'll revisit it......but not before I put a bunch of frustration and anger in it! One will the anger fans even care that the anger is there? Are you a big loser cause you can ignore hate mail? Or do you really care cause you will still get money for it. I can make the dumbass argument that Anno did that on purpose to piss people off and give him a reason to make yet another Eva ending so that he can have more money. Is that true? Most likely no, but I'd prefer that then to some adult getting childishly upset cause they are getting hate mail. "oh no, someone didn't like what I did, I better get back in their monies...err good graces." [/rant]

Dumbass argument? Did you know that Anno put the hate letters into the film just to slap them back in the face of the senders? Many, many of the hate letters flicker by...

Anno mocked the audience that was there at the showing of EoE, according to information I have received about the showing.

There was a lot of infighting at GAINAX over this as well.

It takes a lot to expose one's inner emotion and feeling on something like a TV series... and I can easily imagine that after opening one's self up like that and then receiving a lot of hate mail, it would make one that much more susceptable to hostility and anger... having torn down defenses...

but, you probably write that off as psycho-babble. After all, if you don't get it, it's not true. It's just stuff others make up to feel like they'rte clever, isn't that right?

Anno wasn't exploring deep questions, he was apparently just after cash as you seem to argue.

Lastly, while I would lvoe to argue your points up and down, I did want to say that the crowd of people cheering for Shinji is NOT why one feels good at the end of the TV series. It's the important message that is discovered and the understanding of it, which makes one feel good. The cheering scene was a nice touch, but had little to do with why the end of the show was optimistic. It simply was empowering and offered hope... as opposed to being a "happy ending".

-Uncle Milo

[Otohiko]

Like and dislike? It's a very simple concept; and I wouldn't say it's not unnatural. It's simply a psychological defence against things that make one uncomfortable or a justification for imposing a subjective value on something without proper reasoning.

Liking and disliking is a simple, narrow way of passing subjective value judgements which often lack respect for other ways of looking at things.

In this case, liking and disliking also seems to go to where people generally take it - transforming it into hostility for things which are out there already. So, rather than looking at a variety of possible values something can have for others, people take this 'like/dislike' and turn it from a subjective value judgement into what they claim as the objective analysis; and, if we're talking about dislike, you get the 'It should never have been made!' response.

Which is what I'm getting at here with attitudes of some towards EoE. Dislike? You shouldn't have to deal with it. If it's not working for you, move on. Argue your value judgement and leave it at that. Yet, you still get the 'it should never have been made!' 'I hate it!' 'It sucks!' every other time.

My question is, who asked you? Or why should you bother, when there's thousands of other movies you might like?

Yet, in the culture of like and dislike, moving on isn't inherently likely. Because rather than move on, many people would rather have the thing either go away or have everyone around them unite in their dislike.

I'm bringing this whole thing into the EoE discussion because noone can tell me that the movie objectively sucks, or was made for the wrong reason, or gets what it tried to do wrong. Because my view of it is quite positive.

***

I just don't like the constant flinging of like/dislike back and forth.

The motto for me here: 'Things are not as they seem. They are worse than that. They are also better than that.' Like and dislike discourages thinking in ambiguous terms or accepting them from different angles.



Forget it. It's obvious I'm up against common practice, so I may as well give up now.

But would you belive me if I told you that despite some people's hostility, I thought EoE was an amazing movie?

[Kracus]

[rant]Also, for those who like to mention the creator of the series and use them as a reason against something in the series; I have this to say: so what? I can say he or she sold out cause they made EoE. A bunch of fans don't like something I did, so what. I'm making money, oh well I guess I'll revisit it......but not before I put a bunch of frustration and anger in it! One will the anger fans even care that the anger is there? Are you a big loser cause you can ignore hate mail? Or do you really care cause you will still get money for it. I can make the dumbass argument that Anno did that on purpose to piss people off and give him a reason to make yet another Eva ending so that he can have more money. Is that true? Most likely no, but I'd prefer that then to some adult getting childishly upset cause they are getting hate mail. "oh no, someone didn't like what I did, I better get back in their monies...err good graces." [/rant]

Dumbass argument? Did you know that Anno put the hate letters into the film just to slap them back in the face of the senders? Many, many of the hate letters flicker by...

Anno mocked the audience that was there at the showing of EoE, according to information I have received about the showing.

There was a lot of infighting at GAINAX over this as well.

It takes a lot to expose one's inner emotion and feeling on something like a TV series... and I can easily imagine that after opening one's self up like that and then receiving a lot of hate mail, it would make one that much more susceptable to hostility and anger... having torn down defenses...

but, you probably write that off as psycho-babble. After all, if you don't get it, it's not true. It's just stuff others make up to feel like they'rte clever, isn't that right?

Anno wasn't exploring deep questions, he was apparently just after cash as you seem to argue.

Lastly, while I would lvoe to argue your points up and down, I did want to say that the crowd of people cheering for Shinji is NOT why one feels good at the end of the TV series. It's the important message that is discovered and the understanding of it, which makes one feel good. The cheering scene was a nice touch, but had little to do with why the end of the show was optimistic. It simply was empowering and offered hope... as opposed to being a "happy ending".

-Uncle Milo

One it was a rant, so its not completely how I feel. My purpose for it however isn't to argue with any point that you yourself feel is right. I'm only expressing what I feel is right. Funny how that works. My purpose is just to state that it isn't the way I would have reacted. I wouldn't have made it. But that's me. I wouldn't revisit something I felt was finished.

[Kracus]

but, you probably write that off as psycho-babble. After all, if you don't get it, it's not true. It's just stuff others make up to feel like they'rte clever, isn't that right?

Of course obviously I don't get it. right. It's not Babble, its childish. What you just described that he did, is childish. An adult, a mature person does not let a crowd of mud slingers get them worked up. Hitting people back does not solve the problem. Creates more conflict.

[the Black Monarch]

This is rumor control, here are the facts:

Mr. Anno never wanted episodes 25 and 26 to come out the way they did. The original scripts for those episodes called for something much more similar to EoE. EoTV (can I call it that?) was hastily hacked together at the last minute when Gainax said "OH F*CK! We have about 500 yen left to make these episodes with, and they go on the air in two hours! Somebody do something!"

People who prefer EoTV like to claim that it was Anno's original vision, but in reality, that honor belongs to EoE.

Also, UncleMilo must really be smoking something strong, because EoTV is 50 times more vague and left me 100 times more lost and "unsatisfied" that EoE did (The word is "dissatisfied," by the way), and isn't 1/10000th as complete as EoE is. Hell, they didn't even have time to finish the storyboards, much less the episodes themselves.

[the Black Monarch]

Oh, one more thing:

Whether you prefer EoE or EoTV is very similar to the Red-pill, Blue-pill dilemma from the Matrix. EoTV is the blue pill: a comforting acid trip where you believe whatever you want, but something doesn't feel quite right. EoE is the red pill: You get sucked back into the real world, you learn the truth about everything, and while it may be harsh and depressing, it's the truth. I've always been a red-pill kind of person myself, even though my favorite color is blue.

[HeartbreakerByZep]

Okay let's not make it sound like EoTV was half-assed. I've read a qoute from Anno on an interview page, and although it may never have even happened (meaning the page maker could have made it up) I stick completely by it. He said that EoTV was what he felt like doing at the time, and that he is not dissapointed by it. If that's what Anno wanted to do at the time, it's essential as far as I'm concerned.

It's not like either ending is lacking, though you need both to get the fullest experience. As can be clearly seen by the scenes in EoE that align with EoTV, they are essentially the same ending, and neither is just a slapped together creation to pass the time or get money. I doubt EoTV was put together two hours before show time, be reasonable. Monarch, just because you didn't get the intended effect from EoTV doesn't mean that it is incomplete. For a lot of people I've talked to EoTV provided a far better conclusion and made more sense than EoE. And for others I've talked to EoE was far more sensical. I would argue against anyone who thinks they can write-off either of the endings as anything but great & important.

[shinji13]

Just watch it 20 times ^_^, and pay close attention, and dont get emotionally or physically involved!!

[Daio Kaji]

... I'm glad both endings were made, and they're pretty well equal in my book. I see them as complimentary rather than detracting from one another.

ditto
both endings, like HeartbreakerByZep stated, both have great things to offer and neither ending no matter how lacking in comparison to the other, is crap

on one of the million other eva threads, we started discussing the endings as well and we even started brainstorming about how we could splice both endings together to make a super ending because essentially, they cover the same material when they get into the actual instrumentality bit.

i can definately see how everything comes together plot-wise in EoE, and i can see how Shinji's character reaches self-acceptance in EoTV, but i think i might agree that the TV ending lacked in resolution when it came to the other characters, not all of them, but i think i remember Misato's character not coming to any kind of resolution, possibly the same for Asuka, at least in EoE, we KNOW that Asuka is back to loving life, and obviously Shinji is fine in BOTH endings, but i don't know about Misato, did either ending come to a conclusion for her?

IMO, i would get out the ol' editing program and cut out some of the last scene in EoE, and THEN it would NOT have it's gloomy tone, because at the end of EoE, there is a very mellow tone to everyone, i really like the whole 'as long as the earth, the sun, and the moon continue to exist, everything will be fine' the quote is not EXACTLY like that, but that was the jist of it, it was Yui's voice if i remember correctly that said this
the part that i would remove would be Shinji almost choking the life outta Asuka when Instrumentality is over and they are on that piece of land surrounded by the red colored water (i'm not getting into the discussion of whether that was a Sea of LCL or just the reflection off of the LCL strip across the sky) without that gloomy creepy scene, i think that EoE would have just as much of a hope filled ending as EoTV