Unfaithful Servant - Diebuster AMV

[ProstrateConstantly]

Tycho Science is very special.

[Kionon]

Tycho Science is very special.

I've seen you show up a few times since joining/posting this video, so I assume you are waiting for comments. So I gave this one a watch.

I admit I don't know much about Diebuster (though I am a fan of the original Gunbuster) and I was unable to determine the connection between the source and the song. Sometimes you had literal lyric synch (like with the train), but mostly it seemed like it was metaphorical synch and I was supposed to know what the lyrics were referencing in the video. However, I didn't. This was a very basically cut video, so no problems with how simple the editing was. I just don't think you managed to convey the story you wanted to tell. Ideally, someone who is unfamiliar with both audio and video sources should still be able to understand what you want to say. Here, I simply couldn't.

[ProstrateConstantly]

Thanks for watching man, yea this feels like one of my more directly narrative vids and it doesn't say much. I'm awful with narratives and generally feel that amvs should not be a narrative-centric medium but with the song's emphasis on lyrics I felt this was the appropriate approach to take (which by the way has absolutely no bearing on the story in Diebuster, half the shots are from a story arc totally separate from the character focused on). If you're looking for what I was going for in the video, at least narratively, it's all in the lyrics to the song. The video is sort of held together by this framework that Tycho is this "unfaithful servant", she is sitting in the bath waiting for the train to take her away while she reflects on whatever it is that has forced her to leave and its consequences. However I should say though that I would have loved to make the visuals flow in a more cohesive way, however this video was focused on a side character in a 6 episode series, and this greatly restricted the relevance of footage I had to work with in making this a one-character video.
Mostly however all my efforts were focused towards the song's tone; this is a song I have great reverence for and Diebuster is a show with a wonderful feel to it and once I realized the two would work together I made this video in a night. Normally this work ethic and type of content is more suited for my other AMV project, AbrogateNeed, however those tend to be longer form and unable to be uploaded to Youtube. I thought this video warranted greater exposure if only because of the wonderful syncs with the brass swells at 1:52 and 2:45 and the tonal consistency of the video, as I think my older videos in this same style (Sad Song, Pink Moon, Cheree, Washer) were hampered by strange shot choices.
I want to clarify though if you're new to my channel the last 5 or 6 videos I've made have all been made over months and feature a much more overt, intricate editing style. But again if you're searching for any sort of surface level story you may be disappointed as I'm generally more concerned with mood and broader conceptual ideas.

[Kionon]

I'm awful with narratives and generally feel that amvs should not be a narrative-centric medium.

As I just said less than a day ago, in my view, this is the most important aspect of an AMV. If a your video isn't trying to tell me something about the source, I'm not sure why I am watching. Even gag or meme AMVs have narrative structure because they are jokes, and jokes need set ups and punchlines. Therefore I can't even understand the idea that AMVs should not be a narrative-centric medium. They ARE a narrative-centric medium. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Editing creates new, meaningful structure from sources with a different structure originally.

If you're looking for what I was going for in the video, at least narratively, it's all in the lyrics to the song. The video is sort of held together by this framework that Tycho is this "unfaithful servant", she is sitting in the bath waiting for the train to take her away while she reflects on whatever it is that has forced her to leave and its consequences. However I should say though that I would have loved to make the visuals flow in a more cohesive way, however this video was focused on a side character in a 6 episode series, and this greatly restricted the relevance of footage I had to work with in making this a one-character video.

That didn't communicate well. I wasn't able to determine whether she was the subject of the song or the "narrator" of the song. I didn't see how most of the lyrics told me anything about the video I was watching, and with the train scene, that felt oddly specific because it was the only place where I recognised literal lyric synch. I definitely understand the difficulty in trying to tell a coherent story about a minor character in a very small series. Perhaps there just wasn't enough footage to do your concept justice.

Mostly however all my efforts were focused towards the song's tone; this is a song I have great reverence for and Diebuster is a show with a wonderful feel to it and once I realized the two would work together I made this video in a night. Normally this work ethic and type of content is more suited for my other AMV project, AbrogateNeed, however those tend to be longer form and unable to be uploaded to Youtube. I thought this video warranted greater exposure if only because of the wonderful syncs with the brass swells at 1:52 and 2:45 and the tonal consistency of the video, as I think my older videos in this same style (Sad Song, Pink Moon, Cheree, Washer) were hampered by strange shot choices.

I think you succeeded in creating a tone/mood. I certainly FELT a very dark, unhappy feeling while watching it. I just didn't understand why, I didn't understand what Tycho had to do with it, and I didn't know why I should care about feeling that way.

I'll look into Sad Song and some of your others, I see them in your profile. Kodomo no Jikan is a very interesting source to deal with.

But again if you're searching for any sort of surface level story you may be disappointed as I'm generally more concerned with mood and broader conceptual ideas.

As I don't consider narrative structure to be surface level, I would instead say "underlying story," I think this is just strange. Mood and broader concept are other aspects necessary in a successful AMV. In fact concept comes first, then you build the story structure, this should help determine the needed mood, and you choose your cuts, transitions, and effects if necessary, to match. Missing an underlying story feels like missing a fundamental aspect. But that's just me.

[ProstrateConstantly]

Our approaches to AMVs, and perhaps visual mediums as a whole, is where we fundamentally differ. My background comes from experimental, abstract shorts which I feel creates an interesting approach to this medium that I have not seen fully utilized in this way. To me AMVs are an audio-visual art, in the basest form they are the synchronization of music to images (so saying they are always necessarily narrative-driven is absolutely an opinion), which is why I think the finest and purest video of this sort is Peter Greenaway's Intervals. If you're looking for a closer-to-home AMV example Otohiko's Backwards Seagull Orange is another great example of this. Images speak much much louder than words or narratives If you need a satisfying, narrative coherency to keep your interest without regard for the video's visual or tonal intentions I would say you would have little interest in my other videos. There are many other AMV creators out there with a stronger interest in narrative than me that would be more to your taste.
Now this new video of mine is absolutely not at all my finest work, it was an exercise in less direct beat-by-beat editing on my part and was mainly created because the song and the show just fit together. The reason I called this "my most narrative" is because of the more direct lyrical syncs, which I did just to try something new as I'd always avoided such things before. That dark, unhappy feeling you experienced, although I'd describe it more as a bittersweet melancholy, was really all I was hoping to accomplish, as I feel like this mood was present in both the original song and Diebuster and I wanted to show how the two melded. I would much prefer if this much effort was put towards talking about Rocks Off, Touch, or Prostrate Constantly, as these are much more direct, full amalgamations of what I've always wanted to accomplish with these videos rather than a weird footnote like this one.

[Kionon]

Our approaches to AMVs, and perhaps visual mediums as a whole, is where we fundamentally differ.

This is obvious, and was even more obvious once I watched a few of your videos. Particularly your KareKano video, which reminded me of something I might have seen from godix (though not any of his well-known stuff, which was overt trollish comedy or parody, but rather some of the other stuff, particularly unfinished betas he had shared with me). I liked the KareKano video, though I admit, I know the source quite well, so the intertextuality present in my viewing means I could have been adding narrative structure you never intended.

My background comes from experimental, abstract shorts which I feel creates an interesting approach to this medium that I have not seen fully utilized in this way. To me AMVs are an audio-visual art, in the basest form they are the synchronization of music to images (so saying they are always necessarily narrative-driven is absolutely an opinion), which is why I think the finest and purest video of this sort is Peter Greenaway's Intervals. If you're looking for a closer-to-home AMV example Otohiko's Backwards Seagull Orange is another great example of this. Images speak much much louder than words or narratives If you need a satisfying, narrative coherency to keep your interest without regard for the video's visual or tonal intentions I would say you would have little interest in my other videos. There are many other AMV creators out there with a stronger interest in narrative than me that would be more to your taste.

This feels somewhat dismissive of my issues with this video. Also, to be clear while I don't know who Peter Greenaway is (does he have a more well known moniker, how long has he been active in the hobby?), I count Otohiko amongst one of my best friends within the hobby. I am quite familiar with George's work. A fair amount of his Russian language work has a similar tone/mood to your work, but I would not say it lacks narrative structure. I could ask him directly what he thinks about this. I would STRONGLY disagree that experimental, abstract shorts lack narrative structure. I have done my own experiments (Gothik, Elevator), but they had narrative structure. Just not particularly good narrative structure, and I largely abandoned that style of editing as "bad for me." But that doesn't mean that style is the issue. I don't think narrative structure and experimental abstraction are a dichotomy or are mutually exclusive. This feels a bit like a cop-out to me.

Now this new video of mine is absolutely not at all my finest work, it was an exercise in less direct beat-by-beat editing on my part and was mainly created because the song and the show just fit together. The reason I called this "my most narrative" is because of the more direct lyrical syncs, which I did just to try something new as I'd always avoided such things before. That dark, unhappy feeling you experienced, although I'd describe it more as a bittersweet melancholy, was really all I was hoping to accomplish, as I feel like this mood was present in both the original song and Diebuster and I wanted to show how the two melded. I would much prefer if this much effort was put towards talking about Rocks Off, Touch, or Prostrate Constantly, as these are much more direct, full amalgamations of what I've always wanted to accomplish with these videos rather than a weird footnote like this one.

Well I wouldn't call my feelings bittersweet, and not even melancholy. They were far darker than that. You may have intended to create a mood of bitterswet melancholy, but I mostly felt uncomfortable. I think the reason why is because I felt like there was or should be narrative structure there, that despite my unfamiliarity with the song and the character, I was grasping for understanding that was just out of reach. Like something just out of your visual range that you just can't quite see.

You only joined this year, so I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of your catalogue in order to have known this was "just a weird footnote." I noticed that you kept logging back in, and I presumed it was to see if someone had responded to this video specifically. As I want to encourage new members to stick around, I made sure to do so.

[ProstrateConstantly]

You know what man you seem cooler than what I'd initially thought and I may have been reductive to you earlier. I'm awful at trying to structure my arguments so I'm gonna try your method of quote-response and maybe it'll help me shape this.

I liked the KareKano video, though I admit, I know the source quite well, so the intertextuality present in my viewing means I could have been adding narrative structure you never intended.

I really like how that video turned out and it does serve as a good segue into getting at what I've really been trying to accomplish here. I think our definition of narratives is becoming muddy, there is a definitely thematic (debatably "narrative") underpinning to my videos where they all seem in this almost religious reverence for these anime characters (prostrate constantly, like in prayer), and an analysis of the obsession and separation of the viewer with them. However this is something to be felt and related to through the videos, and I agree with XxAzazel's response to you on his World Peace post that when you're dealing with mediums as emotional as music and anime that trying to pin down and reduce the videos into direct statements of themes and intent are rather reductive to the works. Especially the question "How should it make me feel?", where I feel that your own response is much greater than the creator's intent. Even my intent on how I felt with this video differed from yours and I'm fine with that.

I don't think narrative structure and experimental abstraction are a dichotomy or are mutually exclusive. This feels a bit like a cop-out to me.

I guess I should have made it more clear that Peter Greenaway does not make AMVs, he's a British structuralist filmmaker who has been making shorts and features since the 1960's. Intervals is an exercise in sound synchronization and I find the video inspiring in many ways. Otohiko is fantastic and his approach to these perceptions of "narrative structure" may be touched upon in my next statement.
Again I think what we're talking about with narrative is getting lost. What I meant by narrative was like a very direct, A->B sort of self-contained storytelling. My approach to all my videos is to extend beyond the confines of the "in-universe" characters and events and try to stir introspection in the viewer, such as what causes this obsession with anime and these fictional characters. If only this video is viewed I'm sure that doesn't come across, and this is where I describe it as a footnote because the video serves as more of a tangent/elaboration on this concept. In a way my videos are all from the perspective of someone drunk in a dark room surrounded by anime monitors, The Band's traditional "bar lounge" aesthetic coupled with the lonely mood of Diebuster worked well for this. Your issues with this video are completely valid in the sense of someone coming into this video unfamiliar with this, however my videos are made from the viewpoint of someone who can relate to these sentiments and I have difficulty communicating to people with a differing perspective.

I was grasping for understanding that was just out of reach. Like something just out of your visual range that you just can't quite see.

You see I think this is the basic misunderstanding here. I presuppose that anyone approaching my videos has the same feelings and proclivities that I know myself. However if I were to change this I would feel it could come off as condescending and dishonest despite broadening my appeal. I make videos for an almost impossibly specific niche, but if someone can find something in one of my videos like you did with the KareKano one I'll be satisfied. I'm sorry that this video failed to connect with you, I still rewatch it and feel like I gain a great deal from it and hope someone else will find that too.

You only joined this year, so I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of your catalogue in order to have known this was "just a weird footnote." I noticed that you kept logging back in, and I presumed it was to see if someone had responded to this video specifically. As I want to encourage new members to stick around, I made sure to do so.

Yeah and I absolutely don't blame you for not knowing these stupidly obscure things about my channel, I just hope that my responses can help aid your understanding of my videos. Again thank you so much for responding, my videos rarely get any feedback and your willingness to respond again and again has really helped me gain an outside perspective on my videos.

[seasons]

I liked it.

Last week I heard "Round Here" by Counting Crows in the car and remembered owning the CD when I was a kid. They're a band I really don't care for any more but I started wondering for the first time just what they were really trying to do in the years before Shrek or who they were trying to sound like. Certainly Bob Dylan. Maybe even Pearl Jam (the way he sings "mamaslittlebabybetterget-a-herselfin" sounds like he's trying to do Eddie Vedder). I'm really unfamiliar with The Band, but now watching this, I'm pretty sure they were all about trying to sound like The Band.

I haven't seen this anime and have no idea what specific parallels I'm supposed to draw between the song and the visuals on my screen, although I did give myself into that bittersweet feeling that you're referring to and I had a good time doing so. There was just enough lyric sync for me to make sense of it all in my own way, which probably isn't how you intended it but I'm sure that hasn't been the first time and it won't be the last. The last AMV of yours that I watched was the Kare Kano/Bob Dylan one, and while I wish I could offer up some helpful or educated criticism, the best I can say is that I really preferred this one because it felt a lot less random than that.

Very pleasant internal sync at 2:47.

Weird to have Otohiko brought up so many times here, I've never corresponded with him and know he's not around here as much as he used to be but I found myself kind of wondering what he might think of this and other videos of yours (and also this, while I'm at it, just in case he's ever reading this).

[Kionon]

You know what man you seem cooler than what I'd initially thought and I may have been reductive to you earlier. I'm awful at trying to structure my arguments so I'm gonna try your method of quote-response and maybe it'll help me shape this.

Well, I wouldn't say I am, or have ever been, cool. Certainly not a cool man (as I am not a man). But I will take the compliment, and I am sure you were using man in a sort of friendly, gender-neutral way.

I really like how that video turned out and it does serve as a good segue into getting at what I've really been trying to accomplish here. I think our definition of narratives is becoming muddy, there is a definitely thematic (debatably "narrative") underpinning to my videos where they all seem in this almost religious reverence for these anime characters (prostrate constantly, like in prayer), and an analysis of the obsession and separation of the viewer with them. However this is something to be felt and related to through the videos, and I agree with XxAzazel's response to you on his World Peace post that when you're dealing with mediums as emotional as music and anime that trying to pin down and reduce the videos into direct statements of themes and intent are rather reductive to the works. Especially the question "How should it make me feel?", where I feel that your own response is much greater than the creator's intent. Even my intent on how I felt with this video differed from yours and I'm fine with that.

When I was watching the Kodomo no Jikan video and then the KareKano video, I did get a very Beatnik sort of sense. It felt a lot like Ginsberg in AMV form. That reminded me a bit of godix's experimental works. Many, unfortunately, weren't published. And I definitely see how it is in the same universe as George's works.

I guess I should have made it more clear that Peter Greenaway does not make AMVs, he's a British structuralist filmmaker who has been making shorts and features since the 1960's. Intervals is an exercise in sound synchronization and I find the video inspiring in many ways. Otohiko is fantastic and his approach to these perceptions of "narrative structure" may be touched upon in my next statement.

Never heard of him, but now that I have, how much you want to wager he might be in that same generation of Beatnik artists and intellectuals I referenced earlier. Or at least contemporary with say, Bob Dylan or Simon and Garfunkel, who would seem to be pretty up your alley for audio sources.

Otototototo is a fantastic person in addition to a good editor. If you only know him via his work but not personally, stick around. He doesn't post much these days, but he's still a moderator. He also has the highest forum post count of anyone on the Org.

Again I think what we're talking about with narrative is getting lost. What I meant by narrative was like a very direct, A->B sort of self-contained storytelling. My approach to all my videos is to extend beyond the confines of the "in-universe" characters and events and try to stir introspection in the viewer, such as what causes this obsession with anime and these fictional characters. If only this video is viewed I'm sure that doesn't come across, and this is where I describe it as a footnote because the video serves as more of a tangent/elaboration on this concept. In a way my videos are all from the perspective of someone drunk in a dark room surrounded by anime monitors, The Band's traditional "bar lounge" aesthetic coupled with the lonely mood of Diebuster worked well for this. Your issues with this video are completely valid in the sense of someone coming into this video unfamiliar with this, however my videos are made from the viewpoint of someone who can relate to these sentiments and I have difficulty communicating to people with a differing perspective.

I understand this, in the sense that I understand a lot of post-modern, abstract art movements in the mid-century. I think I can grok what you are trying to do rationally or academically. Emotionally on the other hand, I've always had a tough time with a collage/pop art/found object type approach to AMVs. I don't know that I find it very effective. It's a valid form of expression, certainly. But I think niche is putting it quite mildly. The number of people who will be able to actually enjoy your videos, emphasis on enjoy, might be very small.

I would say that I am pretty much on the exact opposite side of this art question, I think I'm firmly in what you call the A->B self contained storytelling, because I ultimately see AMVs as expressions of what I need to communicate about the characters. You're going to know precisely what I am doing and what I mean. I'm a writer. If you end up with a completely different understanding of the work, and indeed a completely different emotional experience with the work, than I intended, that means I failed. I didn't "write" well enough, clearly enough, in the right way for you to grasp what I wanted to communicate.

I think an excellent comparison would be my 2001 KareKano video, which is about as classic an AMV romance video as you can get. Let me emphasise the original SVHS version (this is a DVD remaster, but it wasn't changed except for some orphan frames or things like that) was produced in 2001, and this was a "good" video at that time.



As for responding again and again, this is what the Org used to be like in its heyday. Very long complex discussions about the philosophy of AMVs. You seemed like maybe you were interested in that too. I think this type of discussion isn't happening publicly anywhere else. It's still a sort of Org speciality that no other platform really has.

[ProstrateConstantly]

Seasons you a real one. The Band is beyond legendary, I might wager to say they're my favorite musical act right now short of Sparks and Captain Beefheart & The Magic Band. I absolutely see what you're getting at with their influence on Counting Crows and Pearl Jam, if you're interested I cannot recommend enough The Band's first three albums and The Basement Tapes they did with Bob Dylan.
I'm beyond glad that you caught the moods I was throwing out. The lyric syncs are mostly abstract and I'm glad you found your own way through it. Also yea my Bob Dylan one is very lackluster, what I trying for there was a type of frustration in a lack of connection but I mostly just made it because I love the flow of the song so much and I had a bunch of leftover Kare Kano footage to use. It did end up being very helpful for the sort of glitchy flashy segments in my Touch video to already have some quick image cuts from that Bob Dylan one as well.

Kionon yea I can definitely see some Beatnik influence, Ginsberg is amazing and that Kare Kano videos definitely has some shades of him. Yeah Bob Dylan's probably my most listened to artist and I have done an AMV of one of his tracks, but as I said it's very shoddy and insignificant. Paul Simon had some great songs, I wouldn't call him a very direct influence nor among the best Beatnik figures but I can see the comparison. I'll keep an eye out for Otototototo as we seem to have large crossover in music taste and conceptual approach.
Edit: Peter Greenaway is not a very Beatnik artist by the way, his work is usually very strange and more influenced by 17th century paintings than anything else.
In terms of my approach and niche I'm just trying to create something I haven't seen done in this exact style before, yet feel a strong compulsion to make. I don't care if my niche is small, as this may make it more meaningful to the few people I do manage to reach, and as long as my work remains honest it is at the most basic level worthwhile. I come to this medium as a strongly visual artist, just as you come to AMVs as a strongly literary artist, and both are approaches are equally valid and are necessary to have a varied medium and conversation. Our approaches to Kare Kano are the clearest evidence of that, and although it does many things I wouldn't do in my videos, I found yours to be a wonderful watch!
Yeah the conversations I've seen go on here are fantastic. I've thrown my videos around on a variety of sites and this is the only place I've seen legitimate discussion. It seems like I'm a little late to the AMV scene for my style but I'm glad there are still some people like you around to keep the conversation alive.
Also grok is a very funny word.