More gun talk, just for kicks!

Propyro · Post by **Propyro** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:06 pm

yuppa wrote:but any thing past 100? it would not do shit.

are you saying that i'f i stay 101 yards away i'm bullet proof?

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kthulhu · Post by **kthulhu** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:06 am

yuppa wrote:And the Class 3 weapon the P 90? i would not try to get a legal one anyway, id go black market for one anyway. and mayby get it reworked a bit to fire a more conventional round.

The P90 is not a popular weapon, so good luck finding one, even on the black market. Good luck, also, on rechambering it - the magazine is <a href="http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/p90/mag/i ... rietary</a>, and machining one would be expensive - especially if you had to take it to an unscrupulous gunsmith, who may well not be able to even do what you ask.

If you're going to buy a full auto sub-machine gun, buy a common one (like an MP5, Uzi, or MAC-11) in a common caliber, like 9x19 Parabellum/Luger/NATO.

Toecutter · Post by **Toecutter** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:22 am

9x19mm Luger/Parabellum is a really crappy round. The only thing the 9mm Berettas had going for them was their high capacity magazines, so you could rittle your target with bullets (probably because it takes that many to take someone down, or ensure you actually hit what you're aiming at). Unfortunately, the Brady Bill made it illegal for civilians to use high capacity magazines, unless you have a Federal Firearms License. It really pisses me off when the government can get their hands on stuff we can't, no matter how much money we civilians have to spend! Our government wasn't formed to give themselves an unfair advantage over the civilian population, because of the threat of a military coup.

.38 Super, .357 Magnum, .38 Special +P, and .380 ACP is your best bet for accuracy. If you're looking for an autoloader with some serious stopping power, the new .40 S&W is a decent round for putting something down within 50 yards. However, it's incredibly inaccurate, which is why many enthusiasts just laugh at the stupidity of the police, giving up perfectly good 9mm pistols, and the old M1911A1.

I'd say the best self defense cartridge would have to be the .38 Special +P. It is the most widely used handgun cartridge in the world, making it readily in-stock in any sporting goods store. The slug itself has a muzzle velocity of only 750-900 fps, depending on the type of slug (JHP will give you the highest muzzle velocity), and bullet weight (152-158 grains is best). However, the round is incredibly accurate for subsonic speeds, and recoil isn't a bear like the .357 Magnum. Finally, you can handload your own ammo to almost .357 Magnum performance levels, and if you need more stopping power to "reach out and touch someone" at 100 yards, your typical .38 Special +P revolver can also shoot .357 Magnum. Litterally, you can save a few bucks on target practice by firing .38 Special rounds, but switch to .357 Magnum ammo when you're concerned about self defense.

kthulhu · Post by **kthulhu** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:36 am

Toecutter wrote:9x19mm Luger/Parabellum is a really crappy round.

Still, it is probably the most common handgun round in the world.

Toecutter wrote:Unfortunately, the Brady Bill made it illegal for civilians to use high capacity magazines, unless you have a Federal Firearms License. It really pisses me off when the government can get their hands on stuff we can't, no matter how much money we civilians have to spend! Our government wasn't formed to give themselves an unfair advantage over the civilian population, because of the threat of a military coup.

Actually, it was the 1994 Crime Act banned civilians from purchasing NEW manufacture high capacity magazines, made after a certain date. The ones made before the act were grandfathered, however, and can still be purchased. For some guns, this was a bad thing (since it increased the price of already uncommon magazines), while it didn't really have an impact on others - AR-15, AK-47, G3, FN FAL, and other common, high capacity rifle magazines are still relatively cheap, which is kind of ironic, since it was those types of weapons the ban sought to affect.

It should be noted that the ban (due to "sunset" and expire in fall 2004) was a waste of 10 years. It banned guns by name, and also based on physical characteristics. While the former works for the intended purpose, the latter, which was supposed to cover weapons not mentioned by name, was stupid. It didn't stop manufacturers from making semi-automatic weapons that could accept high capacity magazines - it merely forced manufacturers to make worthless cosmetic changes, WHILE STILL PRESERVING THE SAME LEVEL OF LETHALITY!

So this, besides the ban's existence, is partly why I don't like it - it's extra hassle for no gain.

Toecutter · Post by **Toecutter** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:51 am

I'm still amazed all the liberal scumbags are shouting down the new Smith and Wesson .500 Magnum! They think some dumbass gangsta from LA is going to spend $1,000 on a handgun that only holds five rounds, and costs $2-$5 per bullet. They also claim the gangsta's using the .500 Magnum will have "anti-tank" capabilities. Granted, the .500 Magnum could easily slice through personnel body armor, and probably an armored car, but I highly doubt it could puncture an APC.

With the practice required for gangstas to effectively use the .500 Magnum in an urban environment, they'd literally need to graduate from college, and get a decent career just to afford the ammo to learn how to kill somebody with it. Then, there's the whole thing with gangstas having worse aim than my frantic grandma. No matter how many Mexican action films they watch in the barrio, or how many levels of Quake they beat at the local arcade, they don't have the training or skill to use ANY handgun effectively.

That's why gangstas usually buy .22LR or .25 ACP "junk guns" for under $100. They can afford the ammo by panhandling, holding up Kwik-E-Marts, or doping up little kids all day. The weapons have incredibly light recoil so as to statistically allow more bullets to impact within the typical 3 foot grouping at 25 yards. Finally, the bullets are almost less-than-lethal, so as to allow the savages to fill their bodies with lead, and still be able to dope up and rape white women the next day.

yuppa · Post by **yuppa** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:51 pm

cutter for the modified gun i was talking about how much of a Recoil from say firing a full clip give me? would i have to get a furm stance or would a good grip work better? i mwilling to bet the recoil would be fierce.

Toecutter · Post by **Toecutter** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:41 am

The recoil would probably be equivalent to a .45 ACP chambered MAC-10, seeing as the mass difference of the .380 ACP to the .45 ACP slug (while significant for stopping power and accuracy) is minimal when it comes to your momentum action-reaction pairs (your old m1v1=m2v2+m3v3).

If you want some decent tables and what not to figure recoil, check out this site:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_recoil_table.htm

While the equation given calcualates the recoil ENERGY (ft-lbs), which is used by gun enthusiasts and manufacturers, the velocity of the weapon's motion due to recoil is necessary, to figure out the pounds or Newtons of force felt by the user. If you guesstimate how long it takes for the weapon to start at recoil velocity, and stop back to zero (if you're firing in semi-auto) due to your body's absorbtion of the recoil through your wrists, you can come up with an average deceleration of the weapon, and therefore, calculate the force you have to apply to brace the weapon.

Then again, recoil energy is more than enough to determine how nasty the kick is. Just compare the different recoil energy values with given cartridges and revolver/autoloader weights) with the recoil energy from the given equation. For estimation's sake, assume the .380-.45 ACP hybrid uses the JHP high velocity loading of powder (9-11 grains).

kthulhu · Post by **kthulhu** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:22 am

Speaking of MACs, do you know anything about the post-ban PM-11 9x19 MAC clones? Any good, or just cheap junk?

Toecutter · Post by **Toecutter** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:31 am

Don't have a clue on them. All I know in the range of pre-ban automatic weapons is the AR-15.

kthulhu · Post by **kthulhu** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:37 am

The PM-11 is semi-auto, takes high capacity magazines, and is pretty damn cheap - $200, plus any applicable shipping and FFL fees.