At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

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Knowname
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by Knowname » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:09 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:
Knowname wrote:I have issue with what Godix says anyway. I mean how can you tire of giving criticism really?? You just gotta give it in a different way is all.
No, I think he's saying he knows giving it is pointless because, despite what they might even say some times, most people don't even want it. They just want you to to "lol +1 tatwuzgr8!!!1one" it like on youtube.
That's exactly how I read it and notice I erased most of my post and only kept the relevant line. Maybe kids nowadays are different, but back in 2004 (when Zarx was a noob lol... wait when WAS Zarx a noob??) you could get a good idea of how much someone accepted the criticism by the 'chattiness' of their reply. I did TONS of ops back then (as many vets know) and I prided myself by getting chatty replys, not just the generic 'thank you come again!'... and boy was Silver_Moon a tough cookie to crack, this is also why I HATE QCs, there's no way to reply to them. Anyway I hate to be so general but I find ppl LIKE to talk *_* maybe not everybody is as argumentative as myself, but everybody likes to talk about themselves. Yes, they will like the "+1z" and all but I think they liked the ones that made them talk even more! I found that these ops weren't usually the longest ones, the most or the least critical ones, they were the ones that 'spoke the loudest', the ones that hit on points (usually unique) that really get to the issue. Now that I think of it most weren't criticism, but "I see what you did there!" type things with "but instead this is what I'd do". See that way you still get your criticism acrossed (psh... tire of criticism... wtf is that??) but you actually sound like your agreeing with the other person.

It's always fun to trick the other noob into doing what you want them too anyway lol.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by Pwolf » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:44 pm

Zarxrax wrote:If I want criticism, then I will ask someone for it while I'm making my video. Once my video is completed, that means I'm either satisfied with it, or I'm aware of certain issues but I don't really care about changing them. At that point I could care less about criticism, because its completely useless to me. I'm not going to go back and change a video after it's released, and any future videos that I do will probably be sufficiently different that your criticism isn't going to be useful for them.

When I was a noob and I didn't know wtf I was doing, I found criticism helpful. But after a year or two, I pretty much knew what I was doing.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by godix » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:06 pm

Knowname wrote:I actually don't think Godix is even answering this question I mean Crack is saying 'he tires of TAKING criticism' Godix is saying 'he tires of GIVING criticism'
I was talking about the same issue, but from the other perspective. As someone who has, and occasionally still does, give honest constructive criticism, I see that most people don't take constructive criticism. Which is what the thread is about.
I have issue with what Godix says anyway. I mean how can you tire of giving criticism really?? You just gotta give it in a different way is all.
It depends on how in depth you go, but when I seriously review a video like for a beta or something, I end up watching it several times all the way through as well as reviewing certain points in the video repeatedly. It actually takes a lot of my attention and a fair amount of effort to honestly review a video. On the other hand, I've had enough practice trashing videos that I don't even need to actually watch it at all to insult it.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by Phantasmagoriat » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:20 pm

I think I see what you mean, and it probably depends if the critic can see what you were trying to achieve with a video,
[and if they think that's even important in their 'constructive criticism'.]

If they can see that, then they can offer insight into what makes your approach effective/ineffective. [The communication/language between the editor and critic changes immediately once this is understood.] If they can't see that, then criticism doesn't go very far-- unless you just want criticism on the mechanics of your editing... but when you see yourself as technically competent, this is rarely the type of criticism offered... and is usually not your primary concern either [unless you're in beta]

Personally, I find true constructive criticism explores what I was trying to achieve. It helps construct 'new understandings' by building upon my 'previous understandings' [if I'm not mistaken, that's why it is called *constructive* criticism]. In AMV's your 'previous understandings' are evident in how your editing reflects what you were trying to do. So if the critic doesn't acknowledge your intentions, it may or may not be useful to you... but I wouldn't even call it constructive criticism.

Unfortunately, viewers tend to prioritize their own intentions over the editor's--
ie. When people watch AMV's, they are looking for what they want to see, rather than what the editor wants to show.
That's just the nature of entertainment.
[which gets in the way of criticism being truly constructive and useful]

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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by Infinity Squared » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:58 pm

Bauzi wrote:It often got pointed out. I always knew that some people might dislike it, but in the end I didn't want this scene in any other way.
This about sums it up for me. Thing is, when I see a video these days and I analyse their edits and techniques it's not often too hard to think, "yeah, I see what they did here... I can definitely do that myself... just I can't be stuffed."

There aren't very many editing techniques in this hobby that I'm not at least aware of if not totally familiar with by now whether it be some technical thing, or a way of presenting something. Hence, if something in my video felt "lacking" to someone criticizing it, it's because I was satisfied to show it that way or there are limitations to what tools or motivations I have in hand. If I'm sufficiently motivated and have the tools, I can do it now with little to no help from other editors.

Hence, yes, I do think I've reached the point where when someone gives me some criticism over my video, I generally just gloss it over and admit that I knew it wasn't going to entertain everybody but also that it was going to entertain at least some. That's the nature of entertainment. Trying to satisfy everyone is compromising on an original mission.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by Knowname » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:03 am

yeah but sometimes you just really halfass a project and REALLY should go back over it lol. I really have no room to talk cuz I've done that many times :o well! g'night
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by godix » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:30 am

Since I got bitched at for approaching this from a reviewers point of view...

When I'm editing a video I'm actually putting effort into, then I will ask people for their constructive criticism via betas. If I'm not comfortable with the style I'm attempting, I may do this a lot with a wide variety of people (as evidenced by at least half a dozen people betaed my last video). However once I'm done and it's released, constructive criticism doesn't matter much. I'm either aware of the problem already, think the problem is minor (the 'you missed the beat by a frame' type comments), or it's something I intentionally decided to do that way. Especially technical criticism. I don't care about tech that much to begin with, but tech comments on a video already released that I won't re-encode is just pointless. A general comment on how well my theme/idea came through is more useful than a nitpicky listing of all minor problems in the video.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by CrackTheSky » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:45 am

godix wrote:I don't care about tech that much to begin with, but tech comments on a video already released that I won't re-encode is just pointless.
This brings up an interesting question: Should such comments just be done away with altogether? I'm not just talking about your videos, I mean in general. Except for people who are literally JUST STARTING OUT and may not know the very basics, are these comments ever useful?

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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by Bauzi » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:39 am

I like this topic. It brings up a lot of interesting points of view.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by BasharOfTheAges » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:52 am

CrackTheSky wrote:
godix wrote:I don't care about tech that much to begin with, but tech comments on a video already released that I won't re-encode is just pointless.
This brings up an interesting question: Should such comments just be done away with altogether? I'm not just talking about your videos, I mean in general. Except for people who are literally JUST STARTING OUT and may not know the very basics, are these comments ever useful?
It's just as important for people starting out to see the flaws of vets pointed out as it is for seeing their own flaws pointed out. You don't want to actually make the butthurt noobs right when they say we're overly critical of them here. By being less critical of some people, you implicitly create that inequality of treatment that shouldn't exist.
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by Megamom » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:24 am

I think it's a new stage, as more experience you win, you tend to climb more steps... no longer need to be told what to do... through experience, dapter you to a style, you have a way of working, organizing the work and most importantly, have a vision of what you do.... through experience! :up:
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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by Douggie » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:30 pm

The reason I (almost) never ask AMV-editors to beta a video of mine is because they tend to give technical comments which I don't care about. I'd like to know how a video made you feel, how you felt the atmosphere, if you understood the story, if you could grasp the concept, if certain parts are funny and all that.

The one thing about knowing how things are made is that is hard to let those thoughts and knowledge go. Once you know how a magician did a trick all the magic is gone and it's really hard to see past that when you see the magician perform that trick. The same thing is with editors, they have a hard time of letting go that "making of"-process when watching a video.

So I like to ask people who don't know shit about the editing/production process (and people who don't know the sources), that's the best opinion you can get. I want to get a certain feeling across, I don't want my video just to look cool or just match with the music. And even if they don't really know what to say about the video, looking at them while they watch the video can tell a lot of how (parts of) the video can make them feel. Their facial expressions, the way they sit or re-adjust and all other types of body language.

Once you know how people feel about your video you know where the problem is. Now, what to do about it - change that what you want to get across - finding that out, that's the fun thing about editing and what editing is about. Besides puzzling with the footage I also like to research to find out what works better. Then try them out.

At least, that's how I feel about it.

Also I don't like to ask anime fans because they tend to get aroused by every form of (their favorite) anime so that's not really useful

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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by CrackTheSky » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:54 pm

BasharOfTheAges wrote:You don't want to actually make the butthurt noobs right when they say we're overly critical of them here. By being less critical of some people, you implicitly create that inequality of treatment that shouldn't exist.
I don't want to start an entirely different discussion here, but I think most of that "overly critical" sentiment comes from the fact that the .org has a somewhat more elitist perspective than most new editors expect. In this case, I'm not saying "elitist" in a derogatory way, I mean it in the sense that we have certain standards that everyone is expected to meet (i.e. technical ones, thanks to the guides). When these standards aren't met, some individuals choose to react a bit too strongly and the noobs take it personally.

Is that good or bad? Well, that's an entirely different discussion.

I just don't think that being critical of a new editor who is still learning and not being so critical of someone who has been editing for years is a bad thing, because there's an expectation that the senior editor knows what he's doing, and technical mistakes tend to be extremely rare; also, the senior editor has probably spent enough time on the video that any flaws are either subjective or known to the editor in question. This is not necessarily the case for noobs.

Unless you're arguing that we should simply APPEAR to be more critical of senior editors so that the newer editors don't feel singled out; however, like I said, I don't think their feeling singled out has anything to do with a disproportionate amount of criticism.

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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by downwithpants » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:16 pm

Phantasmagoriat wrote:Personally, I find true constructive criticism explores what I was trying to achieve.
Douggie wrote:I'd like to know how a video made you feel, how you felt the atmosphere, if you understood the story, if you could grasp the concept, if certain parts are funny and all that.
x2 to both

i pay attention to subjective feedback. when i'm editing, one thing that's always going through my mind is, "how will the audience perceive this sequence?" will it be exciting? dull? will they see the same things i see? it's the one thing that the editor can't see for herself and will vary for each viewer.

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Re: At what point is constructive criticism no longer useful?

Post by Knowname » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:21 pm

So should those of us who consider ourselves noobs put 'noobsauce' in the title or something?? in the video itself? :P
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