Monday 20:30 EDT, Quadir's Feature (pm me with submissions!)
Thursday evening, come bring out your betas!
Sorry the thread was late this week, we did something a little different. Keep the conversation going!
How does beat matching contribute to your favorite videos?
Example Video:
Bonus Video:Download: http://www.umbrellavideo.com/vault/digi ... igitalgod) - 2001 - A Tribute to Asuka and Shinji.zip20:32 <quadir> as the topic says, leaving an op is optional, this is not a discussion of the video persay
20:33 <quadir> but will be a discussion on beat matching in AMVs
20:33 <quadir> feel free to bring up other AMVs to back up or shoot down people's points
20:33 <quadir> but I am providing initial fodder for thought
20:34 <trythil> oh, beat matching
20:34 <trythil> http://www.animemusicvideos.org/video/151744
20:34 <G_Q> Oh, this one.
20:34 <trythil> that is how to NOT do it
20:34 <quadir> use it to BACK UP YOUR POINT
20:34 <trythil> oh, ok
20:34 <DriftRoot> We can bring up mine as an example of what uncompressed audio can do to your carefully synching. -_-
20:34 <Servo101010> when you say beat, does it mean editing synch to the song, or beat in a genre sense like dance?
20:34 <quadir> just pasting links will just get you kicked for derailment
20:34 <MD> damn I tossed that amv....redl...
20:35 <DriftRoot> er, compressed audio I mean
20:35 <trythil> extensively beat matching by cut is a terrible, terrible way to exploit the rhythm of a song, because excessive use of that technique creates a disconnected, painful melange of visual death
20:35 <trythil> (see link above for example, and beware watching it if you have photosensitive epilepsy)
20:35 <quadir> trythil: let people dl the vid eh?
20:36 <trythil> I'm just saying
20:36 <quadir> at least 10 mins :)
20:36 <quadir> technically till 9 but we usually do that so people can leave ops
20:36 <quadir> so I am expecting to start early
20:36 <MD> I liked (her?) other vid
20:37 <trythil> quadir: no, I meant the video I linked, not the one under review today
20:37 <quadir> trythil: you linked to a IC vid
20:37 <trythil> yes, I did
20:37 <quadir> is that fair?
20:37 <trythil> that does not make any more or less valid
20:37 <trythil> +it
20:37 <quadir> I guess if 'I didnt put any effort in this video so plz vote it 10 its just a hobby' is a not a defence, then IC is fair game as well
20:38 <trythil> the ways in which you can edit Iron Chef/Iron Editor videos are a subset of the ways in which you can edit AMVs generally
20:38 <trythil> and as such, yes, I think it's fair game
20:39 <MD> really?!
20:40 <MD> my stuff kind of turns out different
20:41 <MD> when I IC
20:41 <DriftRoot> I could never IC, two hours? God no.
20:41 <trythil> well
20:41 <Servo101010> well just watched the vid, when should we start with the beat debate
20:41 <trythil> let me be clear about this
20:41 <quadir> trythil: OT: is there a brackets picture for the OIC?
20:41 <trythil> I have opinions on what makes an AMV "work" with respect to sync, flow, all that jazz
20:41 <MD> mhmm
20:41 <trythil> I'm well aware that I'm regarded as stupid and perhaps even batshit insane for it
20:42 <quadir> Servo101010: give it at least another 5 mins
20:42 <trythil> so I welcome contrary opinions
20:42 <trythil> but, yeah, I'm just throwing a video out there that illustrates one of my ideas on What Does Not Work Well
20:42 <MD> I want to hear later o.O
20:44 <quadir> trythil: to your credit at least the video beat syncs decently, so it's not a complete 'crap on this' since it has some technical merit
20:44 <trythil> quadir: from one perspective, yes it does
20:45 <trythil> however I think it's lacking in terms of coherency and pacing
20:45 <quadir> I just mean if you want to use a 'bad' example it should have worth, a clear reason why you might think it DOES work and yet to you explain a clear reason why it does not in the end
20:45 <Servo101010> Pacing in terms of the editing?
20:45 <trythil> mind you, my rather strong reaction to this video may have something to do with the fact that I had to judge an IC at 12:30 AM after getting back from work
20:45 <Rathisponge> I have submitted my opinion.
20:45 <trythil> Servo101010: yeah
20:46 <quadir> Rathisponge: cool, I hope she appreciates it.
20:46 <Servo101010> Remember, a message of character relationships is being conveyed more thru the multilayering and fades from one couple to another.
20:46 <DriftRoot> Wait, we started discussion?
20:46 <quadir> yes
20:47 <quadir> it's been 16m just to dl a video
20:47 <quadir> nevermind Rathisponge manage to squeeze in an op
20:47 <MD> wow I see what you mean...it is kinda distracting when you pay attention
20:47 <Rathisponge> Was there a specific topic you wished to discuss quadir?
20:47 <DriftRoot> beat synching
20:47 <quadir> Rathisponge: I think it's in the topic, and trythil has nicely started us off
20:47 <Servo101010> The plethora of characters gives the audience a connection.
20:47 <MD> that was odd o.o
20:48 <trythil> quadir: I have no idea which video is being discussed
20:48 <Rathisponge> By beat synching, do you mean editing so that the amv coincides with the beats?
20:48 <MD> cutting on beats
20:48 <DriftRoot> Just fro the standpoint of one method of synching, I've always felt using partial black fades was kind of a copout
20:48 <quadir> yes, but it can match up to any audio sound (barring lyrics)
20:48 <DriftRoot> *from
20:48 <Servo101010> Rath: Also consider beat with conveying emotion and energy.
20:48 <quadir> for example in the opening for Efflorescent Dawn the colour and movement in the frames goes along with the 'bell' in the audio
20:48 <G_Q> Now I remember where I saw this... the Pro Contest.
20:49 <DriftRoot> Not all the bels, though.
20:49 <DriftRoot> What the heck, I can't spell tonight]
20:49 <quadir> it's still noticable
20:50 <Rathisponge> Ah ok, are you asking what we think about it? such as, do we like it or dislike it, and why?
20:50 <DriftRoot> Yes
20:50 <Servo101010> The beat synch perspective can both apply to the song or the emotion.
20:51 <Rathisponge> Well pertaining to matching beat, regarding at least the audio, with an amv I enjoy it because I think it helps the video make smoother transitions between each "cut".
20:51 <Servo101010> Okay, why don't we focus on the song first then?
20:52 <quadir> Servo101010: it's not a video analysis
20:52 <DriftRoot> If your AMV isn't synched, there's a problem
20:52 <quadir> Servo101010: it's an analysis of a editing technique
20:52 <DriftRoot> Unless it's supposed to not synch for some weird reason
20:52 <quadir> and how it affects other elements in the video
20:53 <Servo101010> Well, the editing technique has a theme of its own, actually, if I may say so.
20:53 <DriftRoot> Ok, how's this: I feel this AMV was almost overly synched because it shortchanged the emotional impact it might have otherwise had. I was so busy try to keep up with what was cutting and fading and blurring that I couldn't really "see" what was going on
20:53 <quadir> Servo101010: you're still thinking too narrow
20:53 <trythil> I'd agree there
20:53 <DriftRoot> This is a fairly strong song, the anime she choose has strong stories...but I didn't get much of that emotional impact because of the quick synching.
20:53 <Rathisponge> I can see what you mean Driftroot
20:53 <trythil> there's a fine line between driving the visuals and allowing the viewer to you know, view the video
20:54 <trythil> and I think ED might have stepped too far to the side of the former
20:54 <quadir> so is it merely a problem of too quick a slideshow?
20:54 <Servo101010> Narrow? Is this discussion concerning technical abilities, or if we just merely liked the sync or not?
20:55 <DriftRoot> I guess a choice was made here, nice synching and effects...or story/emotion. She went with the former, seems like, at the expense of the latter.
20:55 <quadir> Servo101010: I don't care if you think the video is a poor character profile, unlesss the comment pertains to how beat sync influenced you thinking that.
20:55 <DriftRoot> Not saying it's not a nice AMV...but for a sentimental AMV, it didn't do much for me - because of the synching.
20:55 <PaperIsland> I agree to some degree DriftRoot. I wish that at the climax or at some point the video had lingered on a scene
20:55 <Rathisponge> I personally did not find the cuts too quick, but I do believe that longer pauses between cuts helps to convey a dramatic mood
20:55 <PaperIsland> but I liked the video for the most part
20:55 <Minion> sooooo....suck?
20:56 <quadir> sure, and for example the bells with the colour panels in the intro worked really well
20:56 <DriftRoot> At 2:48 with Romeo and Juliet, that was a nice setup, the synch supported the scene, but the content of the following footage didn't hold, up, IMO
20:56 <trythil> quadir: no, i don't think so; because if you linger too long on a particular scene then you break flow, lose viewer interest, etc; and yet at the same time there's something to be said for situations in which hyperspeed editing _does_ work
20:56 <Servo101010> Trythil: Agreed
20:56 <Rathisponge> Yes Driftroot, I agree.
20:56 <quadir> trythil: yet just a few weeks ago we saw a video that was just walking through mist, and it had pretty big emotional impact
20:56 <Minion> romeo and juliet? thats all i needed to hear
20:56 <trythil> quadir: it's highly dependent on audio
20:56 <trythil> well
20:56 <trythil> no
20:56 <trythil> more specifically
20:56 <Rathisponge> At 2:48 that was a perfect example of a long cut, which helped to convey a dramatic mood to me
20:57 <DriftRoot> Yeap
20:57 <Servo101010> Dependent on energy and unison.
20:57 <trythil> it's dependent on a plethora of musical elements that the editor can use in whatever way they are capable of
20:57 <trythil> (awesome, how many more words can I inject into this)
20:57 <Servo101010> not to mention the editing style unifies the characters
20:57 <trythil> I mean, rhythm is obviously one of those drivers
20:57 <PaperIsland> rathisponge: A long cut? Or a long scene that is returned to in between cuts?
20:57 <MD> 1:53 that was odd
20:58 <trythil> but there's videos which make use of melodic motion to make their point; I linked to one on CGTalk a while back (will dig up link if anyone cares)
20:58 <DriftRoot> This may be another one of those AMVs that should have stuck to fewer characters.
20:58 <PaperIsland> No... I don't think so
20:58 <trythil> there's videos that introduce new themes based on key changes
20:58 <trythil> etc
20:58 <PaperIsland> It established that it was kind of like a "tribute" amv with the beginning
20:58 <PaperIsland> and the quick style suited lots of characters
20:58 <DriftRoot> I liked 1:53
20:58 <Rathisponge> Are you saying that the scene was cut in itself Paperisland? If so I may have missed it.
20:58 <trythil> so, actually, taking something of a tangent, I think the term "beat sync" is enormously limiting
20:59 <trythil> and that it should be banned
20:59 <trythil> or, in shorter words, "Beat Sync Considered Harmful"
20:59 <quadir> like in Efflorescent there's a few times when I really think the audio drives a positive editing choice, it really makes you click, from the bells, to the zoom out of the house... but things like the transparent flashing to the drums, or the character cutouts...
20:59 <DriftRoot> Yes, but if this is supposed to be a sentimental video, do we get enough sentiment from so many characters and such quick synching?
20:59 <trythil> http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/ind ... 12674.html
20:59 <trythil> there's that "melodic motion" video I've cited before
21:00 <Servo101010> The editing style depends on visual emphasis, which not only include characters, but also objects and dramatic situations. Emphasizing further connection with its audience.
21:00 <PaperIsland> It starts at about 2:46, then at 2:48 it cuts to her face which is clearly out of order, then it cuts back to the 2:46 scene
21:00 <Minion> http://www.umbrellavideo.com/vault/Non- ... ack%5d.zip this video is awesome because of beat syncing. it would suck balls without it. point made
21:00 <PaperIsland> Ok, actually, maybe it's not clearly out of order
21:00 <PaperIsland> I guess I don't know the source
21:00 <quadir> Minion: what does beat sync give it that would otherwise be absent?
21:00 <quadir> I'm not saying it's not adding to the view
21:00 <PaperIsland> but it's still editing pretty quickly
21:01 <Minion> my answer is the video :O
21:01 <DriftRoot> You can use internal synching instead, cuts down on the quickness factor
21:01 <quadir> Servo101010: you're still not getting to beat matching, make your point soon please
21:01 <Kionon> ooh nice.
21:01 <Kionon> I like this effect
21:01 <Kionon> after effects?
21:01 <trythil> oh, and as for what that video on CGTalk would be lacking: it'd be lacking drama
21:01 <Minion> i'll watch the kev vid. will i have to tear my eyes out after?
21:01 <Servo101010> Editing Style, can take many forms, whether it be fast or slow.
21:01 <trythil> it'd be lacking that sense of mysticism
21:02 <Servo101010> Beat matching, is just one of those forms.
21:02 <trythil> if it did not exploit rhythm and melody to synchronize the motion
21:02 <quadir> trythil: ouch that's gona take a bit to dl
21:02 <trythil> I'd also like to introduce Michel Gondry's video to Chibo Matto's "Sugar Water"
21:02 <trythil> but I don't know where the hell I can find THAT online
21:02 <trythil> that's interesting because it's essentially one cut
21:02 <trythil> run forwards and then backwards
21:03 <trythil> and yet the synchronization is dead-on
21:03 <quadir> hm, I think I remember this OV-spiderdweller video
21:03 <trythil> (but then again it's Michel Gondry)
21:03 <trythil> (and he's, well, God)
21:03 <Minion> i closed that video (kev) after - idk. 30 seconds? there was no fucking point. it was ONLY beat syncing. not interesting
21:04 <trythil> actually that's a good point
21:04 <trythil> does this just have to be AMVs?
21:04 <Minion> you can't base a video on beat sync alone. i think he just picked random scenes and synced them for 2 hours
21:04 <quadir> trythil: no, but I'm scoping it to
21:04 <trythil> oh
21:04 <inthesto> Beat synching owns
21:04 -!- G_Q [~gquestor@ZiRC-D7E80FC.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #amv-review
21:04 -!- mode/#amv-review [+o G_Q] by ChanServ
21:04 <trythil> in that case I can't really say much else
21:05 <trythil> a lot of what I look to for interesting examples of synchronization aren't AMVs :P
21:05 <inthesto> http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... hp?v=50368 <- There is my proof
21:05 <DriftRoot> beat matching guides the viewer, if done right, tells them what's what, when what is, how what is, etc.
21:05 <quadir> trythil: otherwise you'll talk about typography
21:05 <trythil> quadir: no, I'll talk about video
21:05 <trythil> it just won't be AMVs, because honestly i find the synchronization in most AMVs to be dead boring
21:05 <inthesto> Except for Kenshin Technique Beat
21:06 <Servo101010> Beat matching establishes an energy. An energy that has to do with the characters. For example, the emotion of each couple in Efflorescent Dawn is made from cut to cut to cut.
21:06 <G_Q> It has a nice flow.
21:06 <DriftRoot> but is it too fast to get across the emotion?
21:06 <Servo101010> It doesn't establish an intense energy, but a unison energy. Which is what couples have.
21:06 <G_Q> Not really.
21:06 <Kionon> I just have the same issue with it, I have with most multi-source videos.
21:06 <quadir> Minion: hm, would you consider this an action video?
21:07 <trythil> actually
21:07 <trythil> hmm
21:07 <Minion> from the bit i saw, no. it would be catagorized as "fun". except its not fun at all
21:07 <G_Q> A good video tows the fine line between strict beat synch and flowing movement.
21:07 <Kionon> Primarily, my issue is just, why not stick to one of these great series, instead of deluting it with several?
21:07 <Kionon> So few rec videos, for instance.
21:07 <Servo101010> I categorize it as drama and sentimental.
21:07 <trythil> speaking of flow
21:07 <G_Q> You don't have to hit every beat, just go with the flow on every other (or every third) beat.
21:07 <Kionon> I'd love to see a full on rec vid.
21:07 <DriftRoot> Like I said, fewer characters, more time for story development, even with the fast synching
21:08 <trythil> I don't think Playground Love -> http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... hp?v=24927 <- gets enough recognition for what it manages to do by *not* strictly syncing
21:08 <trythil> (and what it'd lose if it did)
21:08 <Kionon> I'm not sure I understand why there's a need to have like five series for this type of video.
21:08 <Kionon> It seems it would be so much more powerful to just stick to one.
21:08 <Servo101010> uhh...I don't think story is the big thing here. I say beat synch as a whole conveys the characters emotions.
21:08 <G_Q> There isn't, I agree.
21:08 <DriftRoot> I think it's ok to have multiple sources if it works, but if it doesn't...
21:08 <trythil> a similar idea applies to Anger Management -> http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... hp?v=24058
21:08 <DriftRoot> Servo: but this is supposed to be a sentimental/romance video.
21:08 <PaperIsland> Kionon: Then it's just banking on the quality of the series isn't it? Your just going, this is a nice series, nice visuals, nice scenes
21:09 <quadir> Kionon: if it's flashy flashy stills throughout, if you don't have 5 characters, people tend to think you're flashing the same 2 stills over and over again
21:09 <DriftRoot> It didn't make me very sentimental
21:09 <Kionon> I don't think it's wrong to use multiple sources.
21:09 <Minion> this discussion needs more examples of people who can make GOOD beat sync videos. here http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... hp?v=23450
21:09 <Servo101010> DriftRoot: and beat synch doesn't apply to those genres?
21:09 <trythil> in which both videos build up this great atmosphere by really drawing in the viewer -- not with hard cuts and lining up beats
21:09 <trythil> but by focusing on that really much more nebulous idea of "flow"
21:09 <quadir> trythil: I can't remember if Anger management (which I uploaded to the vault, since it's not on the org) did do a fair amount no?
21:09 <Kionon> I just think it's a weaker form, if that makes any sense.
21:09 <trythil> quadir: it really doesn't
21:09 <Kionon> Don't get me wrong, I love the video.
21:09 <DriftRoot> Servo: It does, of course, but it needs to support the sentimentality, the romance.
21:09 <G_Q> DR: In the sense that it's suppose to invoke romantic feelings, it would be.
21:09 <Servo101010> how so?
21:10 <G_Q> Plus, the pairings seem to be tragic romantics.
21:10 <Kionon> But it leaves me wanting to see five different videos.
21:10 <Kionon> And feeling unsatisfied that I see none.
21:10 <trythil> quadir: but by doing so I think (as I've said) it creates a very spooky atmosphere, which it would NOT have done had it spliced scenes to a strict schedule
21:10 <quadir> Minion: so I watched the spidey vid again. the song really does demand beat syncing, and I see how it drives a lot of the action
21:10 <trythil> because it allows the viewer to be taken in by visually rich, uh, visuals
21:10 <quadir> but is that then a rule, beat sync in driving action videos = good?
21:10 <trythil> (or hell, I'll even say symbolically rich)
21:11 <quadir> both minion and inthesto have brought up that point as first coming to their minds
21:11 <Servo101010> quadir: Not always with action.
21:11 <trythil> quadir: I don't think it is
21:11 <trythil> and I'll cite the Daicon IV opening
21:11 <G_Q> quadir: Not entirely.
21:11 <G_Q> I've done one.
21:11 <quadir> Kionon: feel better that there's been at least 4 other videos posted so far that don't focus on 5 stories, for discussion
21:11 <Kionon> Point.
21:12 <Kionon> You have a point.
21:12 <quadir> trythil: link. the last 2 things you've pointed to are on the vault
21:12 <PaperIsland> If there was just one source I would feel the need for more depth, and then I would lose the focus on the commonalities and catharsis?
21:12 <trythil> uh
21:12 <trythil> youtube it
21:12 <PaperIsland> Ok, sorry about the gray
21:12 <quadir> trythil: it's on the vault
21:12 <Servo101010> Action beat synch: it can help it but then again it can also abstruct it.
21:12 <Kionon> Maybe you would.
21:12 <trythil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzy1RNJBUo4
21:12 <quadir> PaperIsland: I was about to say
21:12 <Kionon> Rather I feel I don't have time to get any depth, because it won't let me focus on a couple long enough to care about them.
21:12 <quadir> Servo101010: good example showing good beat sync that in the end is destructive?
21:12 * DriftRoot agrees
21:13 <DriftRoot> quadir: That Fay video from a few weeks back
21:13 <Servo101010> I'll post an earlier video if you want me to.
21:13 <Kionon> So I reach the end d say "Welll, that was pretty" and not much else.
21:13 <quadir> inthesto: I'm not seeing your example, even as an action video in kenshin technique beat, that it really made for a good amv
21:13 <G_Q> Kio: Well, how about nessie's Sunrise, then
21:13 <G_Q> ?
21:13 <Servo101010> One that's mine and that I know didn't work.
21:13 <quadir> if anything the beat matching here is stopping me from seeing the action
21:13 <PaperIsland> I don't really want to care about the couples in particular so much as say, I can empathize with that moment, I can understand the feelings they're demonstrating
21:13 <Kionon> I loved sunrise.
21:13 <G_Q> It focuses on two couples and seems to have a nice flow.
21:13 <Kionon> ...wait, wait
21:13 <quadir> whereas in Minion OV spidey video it at least complimented
21:14 <Kionon> No, sunSHINE.
21:14 <G_Q> So, is two the magic number, though?
21:14 <Kionon> Her most recent one.
21:14 <quadir> Kionon: link
21:14 <Kionon> http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... p?v=151727
21:15 <trythil> actually, thing about Daicon IV is that it is actually pretty quickly cut, but (A) it's not cut hyperfast like some videos I've posted in here and (B) it's not cut so fast that you can't tell what's going on
21:15 <G_Q> http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... p?v=141038 <-- this one
21:15 <Servo101010> Here's an example that in my opinion: focused on beat synch, but didn't work.http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... hp?v=85102
21:15 <quadir> trythil: that's my main complain with kenshin technique beat
21:15 <quadir> even when it's just one thing flashing over and over again I feel like I'm seeing a new shot every time
21:15 <G_Q> Also, if you want good beat sync and dramatic characters, there's always the twins' vids.
21:16 <quadir> guys try to put a 'editor - title of video' before posting a link, on the same line
21:16 <Kionon> So why did you mention sunrise?
21:16 <quadir> so we can tell what they are at a glance in the log
21:16 <Servo101010> Crackerz' new vid however does work when it comes to beat synch for an action vid. http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... p?v=151612
21:16 <trythil> hmm
21:16 <G_Q> Two couples & sentimental romantic beat sync
21:16 <trythil> that might be problematic
21:16 <trythil> heh
21:17 <Kionon> Oh.
21:17 <G_Q> Does it tend to work better in comparison?
21:17 <Kionon> I guess I'll need to watch it.
21:17 <Kionon> I haven't seen it.
21:17 <trythil> ah here we go
21:17 <trythil> Michel Gondry - Sugar Water
21:17 <trythil> http://www.submarinechannel.com/content ... rWater.mov
21:17 <PaperIsland> It's difficult with this volume of videos, my internet is not fast enough to really respond quickly
21:18 <PaperIsland> I'm sure some others are in the same situation
21:18 <trythil> (not an AMV, but I think that limiting a discussion of sync to just AMVs is rather dumb)
21:18 <quadir> PaperIsland: if it makes you feel better I'm still at nightowl pictures - playground love
21:18 <DriftRoot> I can't check anything out :(
21:18 <quadir> PaperIsland: and I have 6 videos after it, and I'm running at breakneck speed
21:18 <PaperIsland> I fortunately have already seen that one
21:18 * DriftRoot twiddles her thumbs
21:18 <quadir> PaperIsland: I suggest you nail down one, look at what the person was trying to say about it, and run with it
21:18 <MD> http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... _id=150807
21:18 <PaperIsland> I thought it was one of Nightowl's weaker videos...
21:19 <quadir> PaperIsland: try to get someone engaged by responding to them directly
21:19 <quadir> and maybe they'll stop posting links for a second and actually talk about the video they are posting
21:19 <quadir> trythil: I'm really not seeing beat sync driving the Daicon 4 opening at all
21:20 <trythil> it doesn't
21:20 <trythil> which is the point
21:20 <quadir> trythil: oops, right
21:20 <trythil> I mean, it's obviously *there*
21:20 <quadir> trythil: I think it's already established you can follow musical tones or trends to really good effect, but that's outside the scope a bit
21:20 <trythil> but I think what really makes the Daicon IV opening work is (1) the content of the video (how many superhero, sci-fi, etc homages can you find)
21:20 <PaperIsland> I don't know, I think it's obvious that you don't "need" beat synching, it's just a question of when it helps
21:21 <trythil> quadir: well, in that case, I'm going to argue that the whole idea of "beat sync" is unintentionally limiting and should be considered harmful
21:21 <trythil> er
21:21 <quadir> PaperIsland: I think minion's OV spidey video pretty much drove beat sync into your brain audio wise
21:21 <trythil> unnecessarily/unintentionally
21:21 <trythil> one of those
21:21 <Servo101010> PaperIsland: I agree. It's just a tool.
21:21 <quadir> PaperIsland: it would be really hard to deviate from that and still pull off a good video
21:21 <quadir> PaperIsland: so in that case it becomes almost a format
21:22 <Servo101010> May I use CrackTheSky - Subsonic as an example?
21:22 <quadir> must have missed that link let me back up
21:22 <Servo101010> The point about Subsonic is that it has excellent beat synch, but it's not the reason why the video's good.
21:23 <PaperIsland> Well, it might be hard to deviate completely, but you could be more or less intense about how often you beat synch
21:23 <PaperIsland> and the type of beat synch
21:23 <quadir> ( for the record I hadn't seen Playground love, so thank you whoever posted that )
21:23 <trythil> in any case, I think talking about just "beat sync" by itself is harmful because when you do so, you are trying to talk about an element of video in isolation that you really can't isolate
21:24 <PaperIsland> I don't think it's harmful, we're using it as an entrance point
21:24 <trythil> because working on the rhythm, on accents, etc has to go *somewhere* or, well, you get a disconnected mess
21:24 <quadir> DriftRoot: you can still respond to ideas, even if not the individual video ideas. I knew this would midly suck for you, was hoping people would drive more discussion and less fapping/crapping, sorry for not warning you
21:24 <PaperIsland> otherwise it gets eclipsed by the omnipresent "meaning" and such that a video needs to have
21:24 <Servo101010> Trythil: Agree, focusing on a little thing can distract from the overall picture.
21:24 <DriftRoot> It's ok, just kind of hard to get a handle on what certain things pertain to
21:25 <DriftRoot> Lots of downloading fodder, anyways.
21:25 <trythil> and that "somewhere" is where you find things like quadir pointed out
21:25 <trythil> (because, I mean, an attack doesn't last forever)
21:25 <Servo101010> In the sense, Efflorescent Dawn depends on the energy through beat synch. But it's not the only reason why it works.
21:25 <DriftRoot> Tell that to DBZ, trythil
21:25 <Kionon> Sorry guys,
21:25 <Kionon> Korea calling
21:25 <Kionon> I will be distracted
21:25 <trythil> DriftRoot: I didn't say you couldn't do it, I just said that I think the end result will suck :P
21:25 <ngsilver> things change?
21:26 <DriftRoot> Oh, OK then. hehe
21:26 <MD> http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... _id=150807 <----used sync in the vid made it over all enjoyable...left some space (didn't sync the whole thing)
21:26 <PaperIsland> I think we should clarify: When we say beat synch, are we referring to internal synch as well?
21:26 <PaperIsland> What if it's really subtle like it often is in Nightowl's videos?
21:26 <DriftRoot> Yeah, good point, I think we're focusing, with regards to ED, on beat synch...yes?
21:27 <Servo101010> That's the topic.
21:27 <trythil> oh, oh
21:27 <DriftRoot> internal or external beat synch?
21:27 <quadir> trythil: I don't think you need to talk about in exclusion, just that it should be included in your discussion of said element
21:27 <trythil> Alexander Rutterford - Gantz Graf:
21:27 <trythil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQ
21:27 <trythil> that's one of those examples where I think hyperspeed editing/other work is impressively well-applied
21:27 <quadir> so don't talk about something completely unrelated and unattached to beat sync, is what I meant
21:27 <trythil> well, ok
21:27 <trythil> that video there is beat sync all the way :P
21:28 <trythil> unfortunately
21:28 <trythil> youtube destroyde it
21:28 <quadir> trythil: that's experimental audio though
21:28 <trythil> I don't know if I can find a better copy
21:28 <trythil> quadir: so what?
21:28 <trythil> are you going to call it NOT music?
21:28 <trythil> (and if you're going to go THERE, can I drag in urban suite)
21:28 <quadir> trythil: no, we've featured a lot of it in amv-review
21:28 <Servo101010> quadir: Well its hard to talk about beat synch without mentioning the relationships of concepts, songs, visuals, and characters. As well as themes.
21:30 <trythil> hmm, http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xypy9_ ... graf_music might be a little better
21:30 <PaperIsland> Can people try to stick to one example enforcing their point?
21:30 <PaperIsland> We can't download 50 videos trythil...
21:30 <PaperIsland> no offense
21:30 <quadir> trythil: so are you saying that the audio in this case drives the beat sync format?
21:30 <trythil> totally, and I think it's an example of where going crazy on it works well
21:31 <trythil> however
21:31 <DriftRoot> What else drives synch...other than audio?
21:31 <trythil> I think (and PaperIsland, this kinda goes into the point I've been making all along)
21:31 <DriftRoot> Er, in AMVs, at least
21:31 <trythil> that the only reason *why* it succeeds is because it has a high degree of coherency throughout the whole thing
21:31 <trythil> indeed, the whole video is one cut
21:31 <quadir> DriftRoot: I'm trying to say the audio is such that you are forced into it
21:31 <trythil> it's just gone insane wrt syncing elements of the video to audio
21:32 <DriftRoot> Gotcha
21:32 <quadir> like a really slow song forcing a certain theme or pace
21:32 <trythil> so, I think coherency, and maintaining flow, is a big deal
21:32 <trythil> and however you sync in between is, well, what quadir said
21:33 <DriftRoot> Oh, I don't know, one thing I enjoy is synching to certain elements in the music that people probably otherwise wouldn't notice...you can have a fast, hard beat and not synch to it (even if most people would) if something else is their - audio-wise - to synch to
21:33 <PaperIsland> In my opinion, beat synch is a natural extreme of the music video style and so it's no surprise that some of the best videos beat synch, I will call upon Ileia's video which won masters at AWA this year: http://www.animemusicvideos.org/members ... p?v=151029
21:33 <quadir> PaperIsland: award toting won't win you points
21:33 <PaperIsland> I think it demonstrates that beat synch can fit into the purpose of a video
21:34 <PaperIsland> Well, I was mainly identifying it
21:34 <PaperIsland> since she had 3 at AWA
21:36 <PaperIsland> The purpose being evoking a cybernetic world which is controlled and created
21:36 <quadir> so I think both Minion and trythil proved that the audio can force you into an editing style (like being obessed with syncing every beat or sound)
21:36 <quadir> but really outside of that realm, where it is mandated
21:36 <trythil> oh I don't know if I showed that
21:36 <quadir> trythil: I didn't give you the sole credit
21:36 <DriftRoot> I think he/they showed that it's easy to get sucked in and let the music dictate synch. Sometimes this works out ok, sometimes not.
21:36 <quadir> if not proved at least made a storng case for
21:37 <Minion> thats not the point i was making either
21:37 <trythil> my point was to demonstrate sync at a bunch of points along the spectrum and how flow is what really mattered
21:37 <DriftRoot> -_-
21:37 <trythil> which, admittedly, didn't come across all that clearly, but then again I didn't do much advance preparation and I didn't win too many awards in debate class
21:37 <PaperIsland> I could see other options for trythil's video
21:38 <PaperIsland> Just a guy you know... acting strange like he's going crazy or something and hearing strange sounds in his head
21:38 <PaperIsland> that's just the first thing that came to mind
21:38 <PaperIsland> but it wouldn't really require beat synch in that case
21:38 <trythil> that too
21:38 <quadir> wrt crackthesky's vid, I liked it a lot, being a animatrix fan, but I didn't see the beat sync driving or complimenting the narative.
21:39 <quadir> but sometimes, I almost see beat sync as punctuation
21:39 <PaperIsland> I also think the main video didn't have to beat synch
21:39 <quadir> a soft sync is like a comma, giving you a pause to consider the transition
21:39 <quadir> and a hard sync is like a period that drives home the emotion or point the segment was meant to convey
21:39 <quadir> that's when it's used more sparingly and subtly though
21:39 <trythil> i dunno, I'd consider it more of an exclamation mark
21:39 <PaperIsland> I think it can be reversed though
21:40 <PaperIsland> if you keep on cutting, your period is when you don't cut
21:40 <PaperIsland> its an internal system in the video
21:40 <PaperIsland> which is why film is always establishing film grammar rules only to break them
21:41 <quadir> so in crack's vid he kept switching to different animes and plotlines, and the only 'seperator' was beat sync really
21:41 <trythil> I'd agree there, and I think that Gantz Graf video I linked kinda shows that
21:41 <trythil> the end is where there's an abrupt nothing
21:41 <quadir> so like the beep beeep beep in amv hell 3, it almost acts as a seperator for the mind
21:41 <trythil> and it serves as a period
21:41 <quadir> PaperIsland: hmm
21:42 <quadir> I always thought a beat sync should either move me, or make me go 'damn' for the mostpart
21:42 * Kionon watches sunrise, waiting for another call from Korea.
21:43 <quadir> and if you're /noticably/ doing it to a reoccuring element you're going to dilude your message
21:43 <PaperIsland> quadir: shouldn't any video try to move you or make you go "damn"?
21:43 <quadir> like TYPING IN ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME
21:43 <DriftRoot> ugh!
21:43 <quadir> PaperIsland: I don't think so
21:43 <trythil> quadir: AND CONVERSELY, I CAN DRAW attention BY INVERTING SENSE
21:43 <PaperIsland> can you give me an example of what you mean
21:44 <quadir> trythil: NOT ReALLY
21:44 <trythil> I saw the e
21:44 <DriftRoot> enough already
21:44 <quadir> trythil: or at least, I'm not a fan of the screamer lyric, then a bit of whispering, so that may influence me there
21:44 <quadir> but it is fairly common
21:45 <PaperIsland> what about in paranoid android by radiohead, after the crazy solo it slows down for a dramatic attention drawing finish?
21:45 <quadir> but it just seems talking in exclamation points all the time is a bit excessive
21:45 <PaperIsland> (we saw a video in the review which used that song, thats why i feel like i can mention it)
21:45 <DriftRoot> That's some people's style, though
21:45 <quadir> ileia's don't break sortof did that for me, kept mashing me with !'s
21:46 <quadir> PaperIsland: which one was that
21:46 <PaperIsland> I think it was emong's
21:47 <Kionon> GQ: So far, I'm not understanding Honey and Clover.
21:47 <PaperIsland> I don't remember the anime, it had like a cat boy and an older guy though...
21:47 <PaperIsland> sorry about the underline
21:47 <Kionon> But I definitely love the Nana portion of Sunrise.
21:47 <PaperIsland> I keep on clicking things by accident
21:48 <DriftRoot> Loveless
21:48 <PaperIsland> yeah
21:48 <PaperIsland> loveless
21:49 <quadir> trythil: okay both your .mov examples were way out there :)
21:49 <trythil> quadir: which ones?
21:49 <trythil> I think I linked three
21:49 <quadir> trythil: you gave two IIRC, whenithappens and sugarwater
21:49 <trythil> oh
21:49 <trythil> yeah
21:49 <trythil> I don't think they were both way otu there
21:50 <trythil> I wanted to give examples of videos that worked quite well, but weren't primarily driven by the beat
21:50 <trythil> and then I threw in Gantz Graf to give an example of one that was
21:50 <quadir> trythil: and yet the song for sugar water is so dependant on it
21:50 <trythil> YES
21:50 <trythil> IT IS
21:50 <trythil> but
21:50 <trythil> that's part of the point :P
21:50 <quadir> but the video is focussing on the lyrics
21:51 <quadir> to attach them together
21:51 <trythil> wait
21:51 <trythil> dependent on what?
21:51 <trythil> the beat?
21:51 <trythil> I don't think it is
21:51 <quadir> the audio is basicly a soft lyric track over a really slow simple drum beat
21:51 <trythil> I think the song not having any major breaks in it really helps
21:51 <trythil> but I don't think any particular beat pattern drives it
21:51 <quadir> true
21:51 <quadir> well
21:51 <quadir> the thing is just 1 beat pattern
21:52 <quadir> so not a particular one
21:52 <quadir> it just is one
21:52 <quadir> da dum BOOM, da dum BOOM
21:52 <quadir> over and over again
21:52 <trythil> yeah
21:52 <trythil> but I mean
21:52 <quadir> I'm so bad at englishizing sound effects
21:52 <trythil> I could see an AMV editor cutting to, say, every measure
21:52 <trythil> in which case I think that would be the wrong, wrong, wrong thing to do
21:52 <quadir> yeah
21:52 <trythil> or maybe not
21:52 <trythil> if they can make it flow like that
21:52 <quadir> on the boom just hard cut
21:52 <trythil> perhaps it'd work out wonderfully
21:52 <quadir> every time
21:53 <quadir> anyways, thanks for participating people
21:53 <quadir> hopefully you got something out of it
Uncensored version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkjKhfLmUVU