How are AMV's legal?

[koronoru]

However, for simple videos this language
can be nothing more than a script which rips ("mplayer"),
moves frames around (i.e. "cp", "mv"), a command-line image
editor (e.g. "ImageMagick"), and an encoder (take your pick).

Well, if you use those particular utilities, then the results will be interesting to you, me, and trythil, and not many others... and we could be trading Cinelerra EDLs instead, and getting the benefit of at least some effects. To be really relevant to this community, it has to work under Windows and be pretty. I get your point, though, that at least something in this line could be made that might work and be cross-platform. I think editors would be unhappy with it because the stuff editors seem to want to do (judging from discussions in this forum) is all exactly the stuff the would be a problem for this kind of technique - the hand edits, the frame-accurate clipping for lip sync, the fancy chroma keys, and so on. I imagine there would also be "fun" from different versions of a given DVD that are sold as being the same but actually are not. Companies often tweak their mastering to fix problems without labelling the changed version as being changed.

But... if you want to try it, don't let me stop you. Build it and impress us all!

If I tell you now "watch The Matrix while listening to Pink
Floyd's The Wall", is this post a derivative work? I'm sure
companies could argue that, but it does seem ludicrous, yes?

Try this: http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/monte ... 466249.htm

It's exactly what we are discussing here - a special DVD player that loads an edit decision list and then shows a re-edited version of the DVD. The intended application is censorship, but all it would need would be a different edit list and an audio replacement to become an AMV device. The makers of the player are making exactly the claim you're making - it's just free speech about movies, not actual copyright infringement of the movies. The Director's Guild of America is suing them, claiming copyright infringement. Maybe the Director's Guild is wrong, but it's still a genuine lawsuit that has not yet been decided.

[koronoru]

This still places US citizens in trouble due to the access-control circumvention provision of the DMCA, though.

I think you know this, but to clarify for those trying to follow along: there's more crypto involved in playing and copying DVDs than just the CSS encryption that may or may not be applied to the content. With current technology, the drive itself is not necessarily your friend. The software has to convince the drive "Yes, I am licensed Windows software" before the drive will operate; there's also an issue of the drive checking the region code and refusing to play things out-of-region, regardless of what the software tells it. Either of or both of those issues may require the software to lie to the drive, and possibly break the drive's authentication mechanisms in violation of the DMCA.

[koronoru]

My personal take on this is that who the fuck cares if its illegal, it isn't immoral or wrong, and its fun, and they'll never catch us, so do it if you like it. However, I'm not advocating screwing the anime industry; I think people should support them by buying merchandice just to keep the industry we all love alive. I'm only preposing to screw over the music industry, but hopfully not the artists. Is that possible do you think, koronoru?

I think the artists are being screwed so thoroughly by the industry that we'd never get a chance. To put it bluntly, they only have so many holes. As for morality, well, I've mentioned here that I'm into witchcraft. The witch's moral code is that you can do whatever you want if it hurts no-one. Do you think AMVs hurt anyone? Who? How? Note that "we don't want you to do that" isn't the same as "we are hurt by your doing that". (A fact which, for instance, the campaigners against gay marriage ought to learn.)

[Konohamaru]

exactly!!!

[Konohamaru]

[quote="koronoru"] I think the artists are being screwed so thoroughly by the industry that we'd never get a chance. To put it bluntly, they only have so many holes.[/quote]

that's too bad. in fact, it sucks. i guess downloading music isn't going to cause me to go to hell after all is downloading music without buying it a good way to get back at the industry?

[shumira_chan]

However, for simple videos this language
can be nothing more than a script which rips ("mplayer"),
moves frames around (i.e. "cp", "mv"), a command-line image
editor (e.g. "ImageMagick"), and an encoder (take your pick).

Well, if you use those particular utilities, then the results will be interesting to you, me, and trythil, and not many others... and we could be trading Cinelerra EDLs instead, and getting the benefit of at least some effects. To be really relevant to this community, it has to work under Windows and be pretty.

Indeed, and that's the AMV-maker's decision. I would
have thought people would have an interest in trading
EDLs (wasn't aware of these myself as I don't use
Cinelerra). Given that the overhead is so tiny, wouldn't
it be worthwhile to distribute these in case people do
want them (all ten of them?)

I get your point, though, that at least something in this line could be made that might work and be cross-platform. I think editors would be unhappy with it because the stuff editors seem to want to do (judging from discussions in this forum) is all exactly the stuff the would be a problem for this kind of technique - the hand edits, the frame-accurate clipping for lip sync, the fancy chroma keys, and so on. I imagine there

Does an EDL contain all the information which Cinelerra
needs in order to recreate any video which was made
with it?

would also be "fun" from different versions of a given DVD that are sold as being the same but actually are not. Companies often tweak their mastering to fix problems without labelling the changed version as being changed.

Ah, well, that's unavoidable. Enthusiasts could tweak
the source code if they wish. The point is, the creator
can do so too, in case they want to use the remastered
version because, say, it's of better quality.

But... if you want to try it, don't let me stop you. Build it and impress us all!

Oh, well, it's not to impress anyone. It just seems like
a sensible way to do something. I'll continue to look into it.

If I tell you now "watch The Matrix while listening to Pink
Floyd's The Wall", is this post a derivative work? I'm sure
companies could argue that, but it does seem ludicrous, yes?

Try this: http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/monte ... 466249.htm

It's exactly what we are discussing here - a special DVD player that loads an edit decision list and then shows a re-edited version of the DVD. The intended application is

Indeed, I did mention it being "legally defensible", which
is why there is a rather protracted court battle in this case.
Here are the interesting details:

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/institutes/ ... rplay.html

I also said it's ludicrous and that companies would argue it.
However, even I didn't imagine the extremes to which they
would go (and I was thought the Matrix/Floyd example was
absurd): on the mp3 recording from the above website one of
the lawyers quotes a case in which -- I kid you not -- it was
said that <i>going to the bathroom while watching a movie
is a copyright violation because you are missing
a part of it and hence it is a derivative work</i>. So yes,
Hollywood will claim that if I tell you to blink at the one-hour
mark of "Battlefield Earth" I have violated copyright law
and desecrated the director's original intent.

I heard a good chunk of the mp3: I laughed, I cried, and
then I turned it off in disgust. As usual, whoever has the
most money will win (which, BTW, is basically what
lawyers on the mp3 also said!) It is very scary, they also
mention how studios can control works in the public
domain. Basically, we're really, really fucked...

[Konohamaru]

[quote="shumira_chan"] Basically, we're really, really fucked...[/quote]

well duh. we knew that already.

[koronoru]

I would
have thought people would have an interest in trading
EDLs (wasn't aware of these myself as I don't use
Cinelerra).

EDL = "edit decision list"; that's what the pros call "project files". It's not a term specific to Cinelerra, any non-linear editor creates an EDL. Unfortunately, I don't think there's any documented standard format appropriate to AMV-making. The Cinelerra format is XML-based. It's read and written by an open-source tool, but not documented.

Given that the overhead is so tiny, wouldn't
it be worthwhile to distribute these in case people do
want them (all ten of them?)

One reason I don't is that unless I somehow "scrubbed" it, my EDL file would contain my real name (it's in my home directory path), which I'd prefer not to advertise. I'd also be concerned about people downloading the file without knowing what it is, being unable to find the "codec" for it, and retaliating with low ratings against the "sucky" video that they can't watch. Nonetheless, I'd probably give out copies to people who asked me in email.

Does an EDL contain all the information which Cinelerra
needs in order to recreate any video which was made
with it?

Well, yes and no. You also need the "assets" (the audio, video, any still frames, etc.). You need the "index" files (generated as a preprocessing step) if you're editing MPEG-2 (like from DVDs) because Cinelerra can't do frame-accurate seeking by itself. In my experience, it can't edit from purely ripped VOBs anyway, so I extract just the video stream with a demuxer, index that, and edit from there. Probably the thing to do would be include a script with the EDL to do the ripping/preprocessing; in theory someone could just be told "rip it in this way with these tools" but that would be error-prone if we're trying to get a bit-identical result. Other issues: different versions of Cinelerra are not as compatible as they should be, and EDLs normally include full paths (so we'd probably have to standardize a directory structure for storing assets).

Overall, I think two motivated and skilled editors could share an EDL, but it would be a one-off kind of thing, not something we could use as a general video distribution method.

the lawyers quotes a case in which -- I kid you not -- it was
said that <i>going to the bathroom while watching a movie
is a copyright violation because you are missing
a part of it and hence it is a derivative work</i>.

There's a similar quote floating around from Jamie Kellner of Turner Broadcasting, discussed on this page: http://research.yale.edu/lawmeme/module ... le&sid=198

Basically, we're really, really fucked...

Well, we have some highly skilled technical people... the war isn't over yet.

[Calim]

Ok lets just say this

They aren't illegal its just that the Anime Companies don't really care, if they sued us or demanded we stop making AMVs they would lose alot of customers.

End of Story.

[azulmagia]

Ok lets just say this

They aren't illegal its just that the Anime Companies don't really care, if they sued us or demanded we stop making AMVs they would lose alot of customers.

End of Story.

No, let's just say there's illegal as in shooting a guy, and there's illegal as in skipping out on an expired parking meter....