Source Footage Ethics Symposium - I'm blowing your mind!

[devilmaykickass]

This is all bullshit.

[jasper-isis]

Fansubs/RAWs: We all seem to hold that it is unethical to use fansubs or other downloaded footage in the creation of AMVs. [...] The reasoning behind this (as I have to come garner from the discussion here in the last few years) is because using fansubs and other downloaded material does not support the creators. If there’s another reason, please inform me, because the rest of my post is centered around this key assumption.

Actually, in my mind there's a another reason, and it has higher priority:

1. Let's not get sued.
2. Let's support the anime creators. [Ditto for musical artists.]

I'm sure that the desire to support anime creators is etched deeply somewhere in this site's philosophy, but nobleness aside, isn't it more important to keep the community alive by not falling into legal quicksand? Supporting the anime creators is just a happy side effect.

[Zarxrax]

BasharOfTheAges, I think you have maybe totally missed the point made by some of us at the beginning.

The flaw in your original post is that you assume most of the people here hold some arbitrary ethical standards that make no sense. This is incorrect. Most of us do NOT think its "evil" or whatever to use fansubs or various other things as source. I'm not saying that no one does though, and of course people vary in their opinions and beliefs.

I think you are seeing it something like this though:
Random noob comes to the forum, asks where to download Naruto episodes to make an amv with. Now I go into his thread and tell him not to use download episodes, I tell him they will make his video look like crap (it's true), and that we don't support that type of thing here. Now to someone reading over all these threads where people are saying things like this, it can look like everyone here at this website is some sort of prude who holds up some nonsensical ethical standards. This is not the case, however. Whenever I reply to someone like that, I am not doing it based on my own personal views and opinions, I am doing it because it is site policy.

So therefore, while it may appear that many people hold some sort of ethical views that you are talking about in your original post, I can tell you that most people don't really care one way or the other, and when it sounds like they do care, they are only speaking on behalf of the site.

So essentially, I would postulate that the ethical argument that you are trying to dissect in your original post does not exist except in a small minority of people.

[Vlad G Pohnert]

In all honesty it's a ethical thing and I agree about atleast buying where possible the footage to show some support for what your using...

One other thing to consider however is if you plan on submitting it to a convention. Most conventions don't accept fansubs if they're obvious (subtitles in the footage). The reasons most people thing of is that it distracts the viewers, but there are other reasons.

For instance, Anime Evolution does not show any fansubs (only licences material they get permission) as they have a lot of industry guests. Hence as the AMV contest is already in a grey area, they don't want to add to it further by having fansub source material in it. Pretty much that translates info fan subtitles. Now if you use fansubs and not any subtitles, the it may be hard to really know where the footage came from as it's not as obvious for most and so it's more acceptable.

I say use raws or fansubs only if the you can't buy it or it's not avaiable


Vlad

[Mr Pilkington]

See, this is why I automatically convert all of my DVD source footage to editable Mpeg4. Because no matter what, my footage always looks like shit. No one will ever know how much money I spend per year on footage, because I am a moron. But damnit, I like it this way.

[BasharOfTheAges]

Zarxrax (and most others). As I said in my first post, I really know that most of us don't have these ethical standards and that it's only site policy. That's exactly what I was saying. The policy has an ethical undertone, and I was argung that the ethical standards that make up site policy can be applied to the other things i mentioned. I was pointing out that site policy should also be against the others if those standards were found to be applicible to them. I don't care what anyone actually does or the reasons behind why they do it (although i like to hear the varied reasoning).

I was basically making a comment (incorrectly many would say) that the same ethical reasoning behind the policy on fansubs could be applied to other methods where the industry didn't receive more cash in their wallets, and thus these other methods should be against site policy as well. I have received a number of arguments to the contrary, and i understand and agree with some of them. Don't think i'm still digging my heals in here, i'm just pointing out what people seem to keep glossing over.

I can read the reasoning of the people that disagree with the base concepts i was debating, but many of you seem to miss the point entirely and think i'm talking about actual ethics and not policy. The point of discussion was on policy and not actual ethics - though they are interesting topics for debate.

[Mr Pilkington]

Ethics are for wussies and politicians.



Who cares anyway?

[x_rex30]

Fansubs/RAWs: We all seem to hold that it is unethical to use fansubs or other downloaded footage in the creation of AMVs. It’s also illegal (whether or not the series is licensed by the way). Nobody is arguing this fact. The reasoning behind this (as I have to come garner from the discussion here in the last few years) is because using fansubs and other downloaded material does not support the creators. If there’s another reason, please inform me, because the rest of my post is centered around this key assumption.

You know what. If you do use Fansubs in AMVs you do support the creators.. at my end you do at least. Anime that I first saw as fansubs or previews through an AMV make up most of my DVD collection. So it IS ethical to use fansubs in your AMVs.. well to me at least.. because it's an awesome way for me to be introduced to anime and makes me more eager to get a lot of unlicensed stuff once it does get licensed. So keep it up AMVers! Please use fansubs for the sake of increasing my nice anime collection. No need to feel down by BasharOfTheAges words. He's just a pessimistic and trying to sound intelligent.

[Zarxrax]

BasharOfTheAges: Ok then, your gripe is that we don't like fansubs for the sole reason that using them doesn't support the creators?

Again, I'll say that although it looks that way, thats probably not the reason. I can't speak for Phade's views when he made these rules, but I can guess he didn't make the rule because "we need to be nice and support the creators". I'm sure he made the rule to help distance us from the likes of fansubbers. No matter what anyone may argue, anime companies do not like fansubbers. If they could snap their fingers and have all fansubs disappear, they would do it in an instant.

As a result of this seperation, most anime companies look favorably towards AMVs. If this place were a hotbed for fansubbing activities, I seriously doubt that the anime companies would look so favorably at AMVs.

As for the other situations that you described, well it's just common sense. Of course bootlegs are bad and we shouldn't support them here, for the same reasons I just stated. As for things like borrowing a DVD from a friend... well who could give a damn about that? (well except the RIAA and MPAA who are probably trying to find a way to make that illegal)

So basically, it's all about appearances and good intentions. You be nice to them, and they are nice in return.

[x_rex30]

No matter what anyone may argue, anime companies do not like fansubbers. If they could snap their fingers and have all fansubs disappear, they would do it in an instant.

I find this to be bs in a sense. Fansubs=half my collection.. DVD collection that is. And I can't rent porn and I don't like to rent in the first place so I watch licensed hentai online to see what I like.. 90% of my collection in hentai is things I already saw online. I've made the mistake of buying before trying.. now I try very hard not to make that mistake again.. so to keep my collection pure goldness I'm going to download movies/series for the good of the anime companies. If anime companies thought the majority of fansub watchers were like me.. hell they'd probably promote fansubs just like they do AMVs. I've talked to people inside the companies before and a lot of them seem to think fansubs are not that much of a big deal, hell it's what helps make anime soo popular.

http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html? ... &id=mimage
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html? ... &id=mimage