How are AMV's legal?

[Declan_Vee]

Too long to wuote and it's just up there

Are you suggesting we only distribute AVS and PPJ files?

Well I'm screwed...

And after all this I wonder, just how long the RIAAs arm is.

[shumira_chan]

Too long to wuote and it's just up there

Are you suggesting we only distribute AVS and PPJ files?

Well I'm screwed...

In essence, although I don't know what a PPJ file is.
AVS is not cross-platform, although it is GPL. If you
think that would screw you wait until the lawsuits start
(though I hope they don't). I'd love to have the option
of encoding some videos at full resolution myself as
opposed to seeing small downloadable versions. I
must say, though, that I do own most of the source
material which make up the AMVs I like (because
probably that's why I like them -- they aren't that many,
and I prefer single-anime vids). It would also be an
awesome way to learn how people work and how
things are done (a good video would itself be a technical
guide of how to make a good video).

So, personally, yes, I'd prefer using and downloading
AMV recipes, although I would hardly expect any support
regarding such endeavour...

[Rorschach]

There's a simple way to make AMVs legal: distribute the
editing process, not the source material. An AMV would
simply be a program which asks for footage and a song
and would then proceed to rip/edit/encode the source.
A video-editing programming language is required, but
it's actually fairly straightforward: a video editor which saves
all steps in a plain text file. You dowload the file and "run"
it. I've been thinking of doing something along these lines,
but proof of concept is still a bit off.

Advantages? Imagine every single AMV ever made stored
on a single CD. Codec problems are a thing of the past,
simply change a single line in the program e.g.

target_codec=MPEG2

to:

target_codec=MPEG1

That's it. A popped frame at 01:13? Change another code
line and get rid of it. Remastering AMVs becomes easy,
backing them up, downloading, encoding... all trivial, all
legal, as no copyrighted material is copied (except for
the AMV program itself which _you_ own).

Drawbacks? It's greatest strength is also the greatest
weakness: you must have all the source material.

Then too, I wonder if such a program could do the special effects, especially the "shattering picture" effect I've been using in some of my videos, which is based on exploiting the compression method as a form of art. (I suppose it *might* work with MPEG-2, though I've never tried that...)

[nailz]

my say on in this is:

<Insert poorly written post here>

If I was your english teacher, I'd have raped your face with a splintery ruler.

[shumira_chan]

Then too, I wonder if such a program could do the special effects, especially the "shattering picture" effect I've been using in some of my videos, which is based on exploiting the compression method as a form of art. (I suppose it *might* work with MPEG-2, though I've never tried that...)

I don't see why not. If it's not part of the core language you
can always write a module (i.e. a subroutine or plug-in) that
does it. This would also let everybody know how you do it
and perhaps improve upon it...

I'm assuming of course that the AMV culture would be
willing to share editing/FX techniques, which in my
experience it is.

[koronoru]

Why would they be made illegal? Whats the point to it? I dont see one, do any of you??? Well .... Is there? Of course not? If there is, i'd like to hear one.

AMVs would not be made illegal. They are already illegal. The reason is very simple, but people have a hard time understanding it: AMVs are illegal(*) because their distribution is against the law. That's what "illegal" means. The law it's specifically against is the copyright law (called the Copyright Act here in Canada; other countries have other names, virtually all copyright laws being derived from an international treaty called the Berne Convention). Copyright law in general states that the original creator of work has a privilege called "copyright" which includes being allowed to say who is and isn't allowed to make "derivative work" incorporating parts of the original. AMVs are derivative works of anime and music sources. They are made without permission(*) of the copyright holders. That is against the law. It's illegal. Note that it has nothing to do with whether it's for profit. Copyright law does not have a general exception for all non-profit use. It has an exception variously called "fair dealing" or "fair use", and non-profit is part of that, but non-profit doesn't automatically make the exception apply, it probably doesn't apply to the use of video in an AMV, and it definitely doesn't apply to the use of music in an AMV.

The important thing to remember is that "illegal" isn't the same as "immoral". There are lots and lots of reasons why you and I consider AMVs to be morally acceptable. The non-profit thing is one of those, not the only one But those are not legal arguments. Those arguments maybe mean that it's okay to make and distribute AMVs... but they do not mean that it's legal to make and distribute AMVs. It ain't. I'm annoyed by all this debate of AMVs being "made" illegal, because that's not the point. They are already illegal. We should be talking about why they should be made legal, and we should be talking about that to our legislators, not to each other. You don't have to convince me that AMVs ought to be legal, I already know. Go tell your Congresscritter or MP or whatever.

(*) Yes, I'm aware that some people have actually obtained at least partial copyright permission for creation and distribution of some AMVs, and at least one person has even been hired to make an AMV by one of the source-material copyright holders. That means nothing for the average Linkinball Z video. Note that from a legal perspective, a copyright holder looking the other way (as most anime distributors do) does not count as permission and make everything okay, especially because it's the use of music that is the bigger infringement than the use of anime anyway. If they look the other way that means you don't get caught; it doesn't mean your actions were legal.

There's a simple way to make AMVs legal: distribute the
editing process, not the source material. An AMV would
simply be a program which asks for footage and a song
and would then proceed to rip/edit/encode the source.
A video-editing programming language is required, but
it's actually fairly straightforward: a video editor which saves
all steps in a plain text file. You dowload the file and "run"
it. I've been thinking of doing something along these lines,
but proof of concept is still a bit off.

Last time someone suggested that, I explained at some length why it is harder than it sounds:
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/v ... 2&start=17

I'm also not sure that it would solve the legal problems entirely (a copyright holder could claim your EDL was some kind of derivative work) but I'd still be happy to see someone try it.

while we are using copyrighted music AND clips from copyrighted shows, we are NOT making any profit...its like if we say the name coca-cola, we are not advertising it...just mentioning it, EVEN THO THE NAME IS COPYRIGHTED! as long as we dont have 2 getto the point where we have 2 buy AMVs, we will be fine.

Copyright infringement is still copyright infringement even if it's non-profit. It's not like saying the name "Coca-Cola" because that's a trademark, not a copyright, and the rules for trademarks are totally different.

[Declan_Vee]

What it all boils down to is people aren't understanding the difference between Law and Ethics in regard to not-for-profit.

It's very clear what you can and can't do with your music and anime. It's printed on the DVD/CD covers and in the case of DVDs on the discs themselves. It goes something along the line of...

Any unauthorised copying, hiring, lending or public performance of this DVD is illegal.

'Nuff said.

[koronoru]

What it all boils down to is people aren't understanding the difference between Law and Ethics in regard to not-for-profit.

You're right, that's the problem. A lot of people seem to have this idea that good things are always legal and bad things are always illegal. Then they're surprised, and refuse to believe it, when they're told that the actual law doesn't exactly align with their idea of what should and shouldn't be allowed.

It's very clear what you can and can't do with your music and anime. It's printed on the DVD/CD covers and in the case of DVDs on the discs themselves. It goes something along the line of...

Any unauthorised copying, hiring, lending or public performance of this DVD is illegal.

'Nuff said.

Well... what you read printed on the covers and the discs is what the people who printed the covers and discs want you to believe. That's not exactly the same thing as the law, because the actual law does have exceptions. Sometimes it's actually legal to make copies directly against the wishes of the copyright holder. The excaptions pretty clearly don't apply to the typical AMV, but it's not true that whatever the copyright holder says goes.

[shumira_chan]

There's a simple way to make AMVs legal: distribute the
editing process, not the source material. An AMV would
simply be a program which asks for footage and a song
and would then proceed to rip/edit/encode the source.
A video-editing programming language is required, but
it's actually fairly straightforward: a video editor which saves
all steps in a plain text file. You dowload the file and "run"
it. I've been thinking of doing something along these lines,
but proof of concept is still a bit off.

Last time someone suggested that, I explained at some length why it is harder than it sounds:
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/phpBB/v ... 2&start=17

I agree that current apps don't have the required capabilities
to do it, which is why I said a new cross-platform programming
language is needed. However, for simple videos this language
can be nothing more than a script which rips ("mplayer"),
moves frames around (i.e. "cp", "mv"), a command-line image
editor (e.g. "ImageMagick"), and an encoder (take your pick). I
know that is what the editor I use does, so simply saving the
steps it takes to a file would pretty much do it.

However, if you manipulate the images themselves things
are much harder (still doable, though, maybe using GIMP
scripting). But a video made of simple cuts and transitions
shouldn't be that hard.

I'm also not sure that it would solve the legal problems entirely (a copyright holder could claim your EDL was some kind of derivative work) but I'd still be happy to see someone try it.

If I tell you now "watch The Matrix while listening to Pink
Floyd's The Wall", is this post a derivative work? I'm sure
companies could argue that, but it does seem ludicrous, yes?

I think the idea is feasable, but only for making very simple
videos, and it's a legally defensible practice. As I said, however,
I have yet to put money where my mouth is and actually
do it, but I am thinking about it...

[bum]

this is taking a note from what shumira previosly sujested. one thing that would be interesting, is if thier was some sort of program that could convert varios project files from one to another. this would make things a hell of alot easier for distribution, with the files being only a few hundred k at most (and most will be bellow 100k) . sure it would still requir you to own the song and anime, but it would legalise things. only problem would be for the coders to actualy do it. though it is posible and has bein doen before (for example star and open office which can handle all ms word , excell and powerpoint files almost flawlesly). one thing which may help alot if some programers actualya atempts to take up such a chalenge would be decompilation. for this to happen, one start would be to create a simple amv (exactly the same one) using varios editors and then trying to figure out how they work, and differ. then again, i dont know much about programing, but hey, it'l help