DON'T RIP-OFF THE AMVs of OTHERS!

Petro · Post by **Petro** » Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:02 pm

Declan_Vee wrote:
punistation wrote: As a recent fr'instance, some gal e-mailed me to ask if she could use my LAINstation as a source for her own Lain AMV.

Messing around with LAINstaion... That is one thing that should be done with extreme caution.

In regard to using other videos for source footage... I don't have a problem with people doing it... I don't see how anyone could have a problem with it... This is really childish.

If someone took one of your AMVs, cut it into 15 second chuncks, rearanged it, and then claimed it was their own. That wouldn't be upset that all of your editing and hard work was being used by someone else when they didn't ask you? I have no problem with someone using footage when they can't find the footage themself, but the issue here is using multiple AMV-creator-edited scenes: Where your hours of hard work to get scenes to look a certain way through editing and effects is claimed by another. That's the issue here. Not using footage within a scene because they can't find the episode. Look at the example vids and you'll see what I mean.

punistation · Post by **punistation** » Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:18 pm

Petro wrote:"That wouldn't be upset that all of your editing and hard work was being used by someone else when they didn't ask you?"

     ...are we talking about some kid using someone's AMV's as footage for their own, or are we talking about ourselves, and how we don't get written permission from the anime's creators?

     I'm certain they would be much more upset that all their hard work was 'being used by someone else' when they (ie. we) didn't ask 'em. And yet... we don't loose any sleep over it. We even justify it, using claims we have no idea about, with words like "legitimate use", and "free publicity".

     It's easy to whine about all the blood and tears we've shed over our editing and creative juices when the anime studios aren't serving us Cease & Desist notices.

     I didn't make a request that PIONEER forward to LAIN's creative staff my letter asking them if I could use their creation in my AMV. I'm pretty certain they don't even know my AMV exists. I'm sure they'd be upset to find out that all their editing and hard work was being used by someone else who didn't even ask... but they don't know, so I'm not loosing any sleep over it.

     If someone grabs some LAINstation footage without asking me, I won't be upset, because I have no moral highground to climb up on. By requesting that they ask me first is just me trying to bring a lil' community togetherness and pleasant communication into this place. I'm not demanding that they must get written permission from me first... permission is is already there. It'd just be nice if they mentioned their intent is all. If they don't, it'd be unfortunate... but I won't be feeling violated anytime soon.

     We use the creator's work to create our own. Now others use our creations as their own. We're a part of a cycle, not the beginning and end of it. I know it's hard, but our ego's will just have to learn to accept that.

Kisses XXOOXX
Jen

"..." "..."

Petro · Post by **Petro** » Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:23 pm

punistation wrote: ...are we talking about some kid using someone's AMV's as footage for their own, or are we talking about ourselves, and how we don't get written permission from the anime's creators?

I'm certain they would be much more upset that all their hard work was 'being used by someone else' when they (ie. we) didn't ask 'em. And yet... we don't loose any sleep over it. We even justify it, using claims we have no idea about, with words like "legitimate use", and "free publicity".

It's easy to whine about all the blood and tears we've shed over our editing and creative juices when the anime studios aren't serving us Cease & Desist notices.

I didn't make a request that PIONEER forward to LAIN's creative staff my letter asking them if I could use their creation in my AMV. I'm pretty certain they don't even know my AMV exists. I'm sure they'd be upset to find out that all their editing and hard work was being used by someone else who didn't even ask... but they don't know, so I'm not loosing any sleep over it.

If someone grabs some LAINstation footage without asking me, I won't be upset, because I have no moral highground to climb up on. By requesting that they ask me first is just me trying to bring a lil' community togetherness and pleasant communication into this place. I'm not demanding that they must get written permission from me first... permission is is already there. It'd just be nice if they mentioned their intent is all. If they don't, it'd be unfortunate... but I won't be feeling violated anytime soon.

We use the creator's work to create our own. Now others use our creations as their own. We're a part of a cycle, not the beginning and end of it. I know it's hard, but our ego's will just have to learn to accept that.
...

That's comparing apples to oranges. Anime companies don't mind AMVs, since they ARE advertisements for the anime. I can't tell you how many times I saw a good AMV, and then decided I wanted to watch the series. It's like free trailers that they don't have to pay for. Heck I've even asked a representative from ADV, and they said that though they legally can't sanction it, they intentionally look the other way.

Now if you were to take an anime, say Lain, re-arrange the scenes and make a new ANIME with it, claiming it to be yours, they'd be pissed off.

punistation · Post by **punistation** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 12:48 am

Petro wrote:"Anime companies don't mind AMVs..."

     I must admit that's a pretty bizzare attitude to take. "I can use their stuff, which I admit is illegal, but someone else can't use mine, because that's morally indefensable".

     I must be getting old. I can actually remember when AMV makers put the effort into making AMV's and helping each other as a community, instead of fighting each other tooth and nail over their own pseudo-trademarked property rights.

     (I really should register the copyright on the name "LAINstation". That's my creation. My intellectual property! I want 50c every time people mention it. I'll let a-m-v.org list it in the Top 10% for now, but once I get the royalty submission slips filed...)

Kisses XXOOXX
Jen

NicholasDWolfwood · Post by **NicholasDWolfwood** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 1:01 am

I have to agree with punistation here. You shouldn't lose sleep over somebody copying your AMV. It's a free world out there, people can do whatever they want. It's technically not your footage/music. You can't put copyrights on videos, because you're using somebody else's anime and somebody else's song, and making an AMV. If you put a copyright on your video, a real copyright, then you could probably get sued by both the anime creator and the song creator.

Gatsthedarksword · Post by **Gatsthedarksword** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 1:13 am

see AMV's are the only place i can really get footage for mine, i don't use highly edited ones like the tainted donughts AMV but i use several and only take a few seconds from each but if someone were to use one amv and rearange just that one i can understand how that would be lazy, unless situations like that occur i think we should all just calm down, if the whole world would just relax a little it would be a happier place, or at least thats what i say.

trythil · Post by **trythil** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 1:50 am

NicholasDWolfwood wrote:I have to agree with punistation here. You shouldn't lose sleep over somebody copying your AMV. It's a free world out there, people can do whatever they want. It's technically not your footage/music. You can't put copyrights on videos, because you're using somebody else's anime and somebody else's song, and making an AMV. If you put a copyright on your video, a real copyright, then you could probably get sued by both the anime creator and the song creator.

You're right, it's not your music (in most cases) and it's not your animation (in most cases).

But it still represents -your work-. I don't think I need to explain how.

I must admit that's a pretty bizzare attitude to take. "I can use their stuff, which I admit is illegal, but someone else can't use mine, because that's morally indefensable".

You're right on the legal part.

U.S. Copyright Law wrote: Sec. 106. - Exclusive rights in copyrighted works
Subject to sections 107 through 121, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

(1)
to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2)
to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work

However, it just isn't the same as taking somebody's editing -- without credit, which has been the main complaint here -- and using it as your own. AMV creators generally credit exactly where their source footage and audio are from. Also, AMVs are:

(1) not commercial in nature (most of the time)
(2) great advertisement (there is a huge body of anecdotal evidence for this)

Both of these satisfy provisions of the Fair Use clause. Granted, there are sections of both U.S. copyright law AND the fair use exemption clause that AMVs violate, but I don't see anybody going broke because of AMVs floating around. (If anybody is losing money, it's the people who pirate licensed anime, NOT the AMV editors.)

In other words, I don't see Manga Entertainment losing sleep or money over the fact that I'm using Wings of Honneamise to promote both their anime AND a relatively unknown musician. One, they're credited in my work; two, I'm advertising for them. You don't do either of those when you rip off somebody else's editing.

trythil · Post by **trythil** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 1:51 am

Oh yeah. I should also note that I bought the WoH DVD.

Official Manga Entertainment, Inc. Region 1 release.

Petro · Post by **Petro** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 3:27 am

punistation wrote:I must admit that's a pretty bizzare attitude to take. "I can use their stuff, which I admit is illegal, but someone else can't use mine, because that's morally indefensable".

I must be getting old. I can actually remember when AMV makers put the effort into making AMV's and helping each other as a community, instead of fighting each other tooth and nail over their own pseudo-trademarked property rights.

Oh I've said before that I don't mind if someone asks to use footage. I think this is a case of miscommunication. Take a look at the videos I mentioned in the begining of the thread and you'll understand what I meant.

-Petro

AbsoluteDestiny · Post by **AbsoluteDestiny** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 3:54 am

punistation wrote: I must admit that's a pretty bizzare attitude to take. "I can use their stuff, which I admit is illegal, but someone else can't use mine, because that's morally indefensable".

I must be getting old. I can actually remember when AMV makers put the effort into making AMV's and helping each other as a community, instead of fighting each other tooth and nail over their own pseudo-trademarked property rights.[/i]

I think you are missing ine distinction between AMV footage and borrowed AMV footage.

AMVs are, most of the time, homages of the anime they are using. We credit the anime and musical source and make no claims over the creation of the footage you see. We do, however make claims over the way the footage has been edited.

When someone uses footage and editing from another AMV, unless they ask permission they are not in any way crediting the editor of that footage. I'm not saying the person who edited that footage owns that footage in any way but just as we show respect for the anime creators by stating our sources then similarly people who takes sections of other people's AMVs should also pay the same respect.

No-one presumes that an AMV maker actually animated the footage, but we do presume that the editing is their own.

I could understand your argument if AMV makers actually claimed that an AMV was their property - but we always create as a homage to the original source. we don't say "I made this animation" we say "I edited this animation". When someone borrows that editing the least they can do is say "I edited this AMV" - if they don't do that then they are being false.

Most AMV makers are honest in the way they make clear distinctions between what they have done and what was acheived by the original source. If an AMV makers takes significantly edited footage from another AMV without admitting to it, they're just not being honest - which is what I object to.

Of course, if you are just taking individual unmodified scenes from AMVs then I have no objection other than my personal moral feeling that if you are going to infringe copyright (even if it is non-profit) the least you could do is buy the source and give something back to the original creator. The only source I haven't paid for so far is the DDR track I've used but that's only because of time restrictions (having to finish the video for the DDR project).

ok, I've had my say. Basically, people should be honest about where they get things whether they be from anime or AMVs or whatever.