Averages

[8bit_samurai]

When submitting an opinion, it says 5 = average, which I think average isn't a very accurate term to use, considering it's mathematical implications, though there isn't very many terms that can describe something that isn't good nor bad. The only other terms I can think of are neutral and mediocre, which aren't very accurate terms either.

Well, this is assuming that the Org's definition of average in the opinion system is not that good yet not that bad. I'm not exactly sure which definition it is.

Is there more than one way to describe average? Because only times its been used for me it always has meant in the middle, or like you said, not good and not bad, or in a AMV sense not horrible but needs work. Either way thats what I was using to define it when i started the topic, since average(If given equially to both bad and good AMVs) should technically be around 5.5.

Well, it seems there's different people who uses different averages to base their scoring. There's the "true" average, where 5 is average number (not comparing to other scores), and the "global" average, where 7-8 (depending on how many pretty good videos they've seen) is the average number (comparing against other scores). Or something like that at least. The "true" averager may score the video based on the video by itself, while the "global" averager may score the video comparing to other videos. The "true" averagers may seem more harsh and the "global" averagers may seem more lenient, but as long as they both agree that 5 = is not that good yet not that bad, 6 = kind of cool, 7 = pretty good, 8 = really good, 9 = great, 10 = awesome to the max (or other similar adjectives), then I don't really see anything wrong with using either type of average they use.

[Knowname]

I personally rate each video on its individual merits. Obviously since I've seen a lot of videos, other videos will have impact on my decisions; however, comparing and contrasting one amv to another is not my goal when rating videos. Everyone rates differently using different criteria and having different levels of previous exposure to amvs. As a result, each person has their own subjective average (and it changes over time). Maybe some people are not bothered or distracted by subtitles and watermarks on a video. Maybe some people see the top 10% as some of the worst videos on the org. Maybe some people need to see a video whose quality looks like random static and has audio that hisses before they bother considering giving out 1s or 2s. Maybe a user will choose to rate a video 3 or 4 points higher if it uses a particular combination of song and anime. There is nothing wrong with any of these situations. It is all subjective. Having a mathematical average of 5.5 goes out the window in a subjective system. (there is no 0 in the opinion system)

I do like how Track is not judged as a competition (though it really looks like one) it's really only judged against your previous performances. If you prefer to think this way so be it. A lot of this is debatable (ie is the competitive parts bigger than the subjective parts? does it really matter as even the subjective parts are halfway competitive when considering the whole) but in general I see very little more than competition. Factual events such as math, or even spelling bees where the winners are NOT subject to further opinionation (ie whether they won or SHOULD HAVE won is not opinion but fact), are not in the same area as the VCAs. I mean how can you REALLY say 'Twilight' is more artistic than 'Attack of the Otaku' (ok bad examples but you get the idea lol)

Some people like receiving feedback to either boost their ego or improve their editing skill...?

It's all for reputation or monetary gain though. this degree is more factual based I think, and would be considered non-competitive. Again what I consider competitive (may be the wrong word) is when the winners are subject to opinion in which THIS degree of art is not. Overall art is competitive (IMO) as a majority thing, but you really can't say either.

I'm not sure if all of that makes sence lol. I'm confusing myself so let's try to gain perspective (I talk in narration! :/), the question here is where is the true global average and why does the sites global avg. not reflect it? First where the global average is is a HARD thing to point out as art is subjective (what I called competitive?) BUT in everything that is SUBJECTIVE there is a baseline AND an average. As I submitted to Crackerz 5 IS average for sure, but artists should STRIVE for the baseline of ~7 pls that is all.

I consider putting out a relevant work a 5
Following the guide with mistakes 6
Following the guide perfectly and not innovating 7 (baseline)
A few innovations (while following the guide... but not perfectly) 7.1-8.9
Pretty much perfect and very intuitive in both video and audio 9-10
And yes, there are WORSE than 5 out there, irrelevant videos that are just blemishes on mankind. Not even useful as a joke.

but since the guides hadn't been updated in half a decade the scales are pretty tipped to the top there...

I like the words "hopelessly inept editors" lol

Is there more than one way to describe average? Because only times its been used for me it always has meant in the middle, or like you said, not good and not bad, or in a AMV sense not horrible but needs work. Either way thats what I was using to define it when i started the topic, since average(If given equially to both bad and good AMVs) should technically be around 5.5.

What I'm trying to say is that there is. It's subjective whether your trying to be subjective or objective.

WHEN IN REALITY your actually talking about the baseline (subjective) versus the average (objective), the very USE of the term 'average' is based on fact and cannot relate to something based on opinion such as art. I think 8bit sums it up pretty well, though I don't really see room for both like he does lol.

Videos on boochsack shouldn't be throw in when your giving an op on the org unless it's on both sites, the org should have its own set of standards because its a whole different site, if people gaves ops based on what you would reguarly see on utube as "average" then it would be no wonder the "average" on the org is so high. Thats like judging a paper written by a teacher and one by the student on the same level. Coming from 2 different people or in this case sites, its obvious what would be better, you cant give the both sites the same standards. Because i believe the average here would obviously be higher. But thats just what i think.(Sorry if i didn't explain my thoughts here well, im a little tired at the moment)

hold on insane, but what about this is a GLOBAL average?? I'm not saying they will always be judged against each other, but we shouldn't IGNORE them if we are striving to be a better site for amvs than that one.

also that was probably more for older videos, YT has grown in the last few years, it is no longer the spawn of bad videos. It just has the majority of them ^_^

[InsaneWaya]

YT has grown in the last few years, it is no longer the spawn of bad videos. It just has the majority of them ^_^

like 90%? lol

[Corran]

I do like how Track is not judged as a competition (though it really looks like one) it's really only judged against your previous performances. If you prefer to think this way so be it. A lot of this is debatable (ie is the competitive parts bigger than the subjective parts? does it really matter as even the subjective parts are halfway competitive when considering the whole) but in general I see very little more than competition. Factual events such as math, or even spelling bees where the winners are NOT subject to further opinionation (ie whether they won or SHOULD HAVE won is not opinion but fact), are not in the same area as the VCAs. I mean how can you REALLY say 'Twilight' is more artistic than 'Attack of the Otaku' (ok bad examples but you get the idea lol)

I don't know what you mean by "Track" or why you are trying to compare a subjective contest to an objective one... My point though is: Why not just enjoy Twilight for what it is instead of trying to figure out if is more artistic than Attack of the Otaku? There is no inherent competition as the videos can stand on their own and be liked or disliked based on their individual merits. Just because they can be compared to each other does not automatically make it competitive.

Some people like receiving feedback to either boost their ego or improve their editing skill...?

It's all for reputation or monetary gain though.

But that is yet another incorrect generalization... Not everyone is out to become "famous" and I'm not sure why you mentioned money. The quote of mine there ends with "...?" not because I'm really asking a question but because I was thinking to myself, "Surely he is not intentionally overlooking these situations?".

the question here is where is the true global average and why does the sites global avg. not reflect it?

It is impossible to gauge what the "true global average" should be and the reason the site stats do not reflect it it has already been mentioned in the first post by the thread creator themself. Some or most users only take the time to leave opinions on the videos they enjoyed. I'm personally guilty of this.

Now can we really consider this a average? I mean think about it, the most popular AMVs will usually get more ops, and usually to get a popular AMV it has to be better than most. So since a majority of ops go to many of the better AMVs can it really be considered a true average?

Yes, the global average it is what it is, an actual stat based on real data in the database. It doesn't try to define a value based on non-existent data, and in that sense it really is the "true" average. I'd say what you are trying to define is more along the lines of a "speculative" average. A what if. It is not a value that can realistically be generated or achieved.

[Knowname]

Corran, buddy, if you refuse to think in such general terms than you will NEVER reach a general answer, simple as that. That is why a global average is not fathomable to you. To me a global average has been achieved, it's just been f*ed up by two years of stupid noobs messing up the curve. When it's too high like this, I just make more crappy amvs xD I gotta get to work.

[Kionon]

Well, to offer a different approach, I grade videos the same way I grade papers:

10 = A+
9 = A
8 = B
7 = C
6 = D
1-5 = F

So to me, most videos being average amounts to most videos being at least 70%, that's "average." Not good, not bad, just passing.

[Corran]

Corran, buddy, if you refuse to think in such general terms than you will NEVER reach a general answer, simple as that. That is why a global average is not fathomable to you. To me a global average has been achieved, it's just been f*ed up by two years of stupid noobs messing up the curve. When it's too high like this, I just make more crappy amvs xD I gotta get to work.

If thinking on general terms was really required to have a valid point:

• Most users are not experienced critics; therefore, an "ideal" global average is not achievable.
• Most users rate only the videos they enjoy; therefore, an "ideal" global average is not achievable.
• The org will never force users to not do the above; therefore, an "ideal" global average will never be achieved.
• I think these two conditions have always existed; therefore, I believe the "ideal" global average has never been achieved.

[Kionon]

[*]Most users rate only the videos they enjoy; therefore, an "ideal" global average is not achievable.

Is this a supposition or can you provide numbers?

I don't even op videos I enjoy. I op, and therefore rate, videos based on how much I am pestered to do so by the video's editor.

[InsaneWaya]

[*]Most users rate only the videos they enjoy; therefore, an "ideal" global average is not achievable.

Is this a supposition or can you provide numbers?

I don't even op videos I enjoy. I op, and therefore rate, videos based on how much I am pestered to do so by the video's editor.

Examples can be WOTB, or the Technique Beats, they both got ops like...over 200 or something like that, and obviously they were very "popular" which is kinda part of the point i tried to make with this O: but only part ;O

[Kionon]

Well, based on how I rate, a global average of 7X% is correct. Most videos are probably are only worth a C, and the outliers, As and Fs, tend to cancel each other out.