So You Want to Start a Revolution?

Flint the Dwarf · Post by **Flint the Dwarf** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:39 pm

Holy crap, this is going to be the longest thread ever.

Longer than those hundred page threads, even if this only reaches a few pages. Give me the rest of today to read it all...

Zarxrax · Post by **Zarxrax** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:46 pm

My avatar symbolizes the entire point of my post. It's all about having fun. If you aren't having fun, then you're doing it wrong, dammit.

Flint the Dwarf · Post by **Flint the Dwarf** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:49 pm

Well said.

SSJVegita0609 · Post by **SSJVegita0609** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:16 pm

Zarxrax wrote:My avatar symbolizes the entire point of my post. It's all about having fun. If you aren't having fun, then you're doing it wrong, dammit.

Agreed 100%

Tab. · Post by **Tab.** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:19 pm

And I say we all use mpeg 4 ASP@L5!!!:|

FirestormXIII · Post by **FirestormXIII** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:30 pm

WilLoW :--) wrote:If you're tired of the community, just leave, and that's all. Yes, you predicted that we would say that, but I really don't understand...

Why do you guys come on this forum to say that you don't like this website and its members anymore ?
Just leave. It's not the real life, there are butterflies and nice girls in the real world. If you want to make AMVs without being involved in the community, just do it.

WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM ???
leave the org. Don't say "Hey, LOOK AT ME, I'm leaving". What's the point of that ? ....

I think you're taking what Nightowl and Iserlohn had to say the wrong way. I read all of what Nightowl had to say, and I don't recall him saying that he was leaving and we all suck. His post wasn't to say that everything's fucked up and can't be fixed and everyone here is an asshole, I think it was to open up some people's eyes as to what he sees going on. He's saying that the org still has merit, but we're falling into a downward spiral where politics and worrying about the Next Big Thing are taking the focus away from the reasons most of us started doing AMVs in the first place: The fun of creating.

He said himself that he made the post because he still loves AMVs. Yes, it's a rant, but I believe it was made with the best of intentions. If he really thought that everything sucked here and couldn't be helped, or that it wasn't worth bothering to say anything, I'm pretty sure he would've not taken the time to post all that he did.

And I really think it's a damn shame that you're criticizing him for speaking out about something that he sees as a problem that'll eventually make the org (and the hobby itself, at least in it's online capacity) a shell of it's former self. He's trying to help the site improve and enlighten other people that may not be aware, and you're telling him basically to stop complaining and just leave. That doesn't help the site, it doesn't really help anything.
You say you don't see the things going on that he's talking about. But, even so, that doesn't mean those things don't go on. Yes, I think that what Nightowl has stated may be a somewhat extreme view of some of the things happening. But, in my time here, I have seen every single thing he mentioned to at least some extent.
I'll admit that about every two or three months, someone comes along says something to the effect of 'the org is falling apart, I'm out of here'. (And I've had things to say about that viewpoint) And so it becomes easy to chalk those departures up to people being nostalgic, and the reality of today doesn't live up to that. But look past that.

I'll be one of the first people to say that things have improved somewhat from when v2 of the forum began, to the present. The forums aren't what they used to be back before v2, in some ways now is better and in others it's worse. It's the nature of change, it's a double-edged sword many times. But wishing back v1 isn't going to make it happen, and v1 had it's share of problems too.
Is v2 forum heaven? No.
Is v2 forum hell? Definitely not.

But the forum and the main site are like two different countries. Yea, everyone can travel between them, there's some connections between them, but ultimately they're like two different places. Now is the main site, and things going on with the actual creation and review of videos, all happiness and sunshine and improving? No.
But as we all know, nothing remains the same. So we're really only left with one option: Things are getting worse, as blind to it as you may like to be (that 'you' was not directed specifically).
No, it's not happening at insane rate, and things aren't going to all fall apart tomorrow. But it is happening, and it will continue to happen until people become aware of it. In light of threads like 'Kearlywhatever's Revenge', I think it's safe to say that there is a voice out there that cares for nothing more than everyone rating their videos highly so they can get on the top 10%. And that voice is getting louder, loud enough that someone made a thread about their video not being rated 'highly' enough

I'd really hate to see what would happen if that point of view really took over. And it may sound a bit doomsday-ish, but I think that view is slowly taking root.

On a tangent, I might as well say something about effects. I don't personally have a problem with effects, so long is there something meaningful backing them. Effects for the sake of effects is sort of a slap in the face to the hobby, especially when that effects vid goes trolling for awards at cons and wins repeatedly because the audience is captivated by the pretty lights. (Note: I'm not using any video as a basis for that example, it's just an example)
It really does seem as though a good percentage of the fan base of AMVs is more concerned with abso-fscking-lutely perfect film-quality video, and how many filters and effects you can squeeze into a video, than the video itself.

The paradox of the moment is that people care more about how the video looks, and less about the substance of it.

The real paradox is how to get more people to appreciate substance.

Okay, I'm getting a little off track here...

I guess to wrap this up I should say that if anyone thinks that there are no problems, then you're a fool.
And yes, every hobby/fandom/whatever does have problems like this. But just because every one does, it doesn't mean that the Org has to follow the pattern. Not because it's necessarily any better than any other place or fandom, but because we as members give a damn about it.

Meh, my train of thought is shot.

BogoSort · Post by **BogoSort** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:38 pm

[shameless self-promotion]
It's tricky to use effects for the sake of effects for dishing out a slap in the face to the hobby and win awards with them.
[/shameless self-promotion]

FirestormXIII · Post by **FirestormXIII** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:43 pm

BogoSort wrote:[shameless self-promotion]
It's tricky to use effects for the sake of effects for dishing out a slap in the face to the hobby and win awards with them.
[/shameless self-promotion]

Right Now, running jokes are still running

WilLoW :--) · Post by **WilLoW :--)** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:03 pm

FirestormXIII wrote: I think you're taking what Nightowl and Iserlohn had to say the wrong way.

In fact it was my goal. Because although Nighthowl did not say that he wants to leave the org and stuff, this post looks like the ones of people who decide to leave.
I don't even understand why this post has not been moved to the "all about me" forum.
Maybe people who think that there's something bad also think that saying it will help. I don't think so.
I don't even understand myself here..why do I talk so seriously whereas I want to make you understand that you take all this stuff too seriously ?

And I really think it's a damn shame that you're criticizing him

I didn't really want to criticize. I just wanted to say that making such a dramatic post for something that isn't worth it is a bit far fetched (umm, lack of vocabulary here, sorry, I guess you understand what I say)

for speaking out about something that he sees as a problem that'll eventually make the org (and the hobby itself, at least in it's online capacity) a shell of it's former self.

drama again...

He's trying to help the site improve and enlighten other people that may not be aware,

Complaining won't improve the website. Saying that it was better before won't improve the website. Saying that it was better when videos didn't use so much effects, and when we cared less about video quality won't improve the website...

But as we all know, nothing remains the same. So we're really only left with one option: Things are getting worse, as blind to it as you may like to be (that 'you' was not directed specifically).
No, it's not happening at insane rate, and things aren't going to all fall apart tomorrow. But it is happening, and it will continue to happen until people become aware of it.

Ok then, suggest something to remove this "problem"...

The real paradox is how to get more people to appreciate substance.

I read this as an answer to what I just said above...
Now yes, I'll go a bit off topic too, but because I think it's important...

The audience likes effects and stuff , and I don't see why its a problem : its he same thing for movies. There are movies with bad quality that try to convey a message, there are blockbusters with special effects that people like because it's candy for the eyes...
Why shouldn't it be the same thing for AMV ?

"Man, I preferred movies when it was Charlie Chaplin. At least they didn't use special effects to make us believe things that do not exist. And the humor always came from the image, not from the sound (there was no sound...), these where good times..."

Special effects are a trend...

Oh, I don't want to speak more, because I'm sure that what I say is total nonsense in english. Basically what I mean is that some AMVs have substance, others don't. Both have their place in the world of AMV (believe me, on a dance floor, an AMV with no substance but lots of effects has a far better effect on the audience than a well thought one with a beautiful story, etc...)

Maybe I don't understand all this because I never went to a con in the US

sorry for not understanding

Org Profile · Post by **Otohiko** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:13 pm

I can perfectly see nightowl's points.

Except, my lack of interest for the technology behind all this makes me say WTF to the compression comments. What? Maybe I need a clarification... but there's not a single video yet where I was unable to get it viewable by downloading proper codecs. What's more, compression and the quality question never really bothered me. Really, I'm too concerned with the quality of the creator's message to care.

And another, similarly puzzled comment:

Why are there all these people lately that come in and complain at the org as some sort of a political hierarchy that has grown corrupt and is stifling new production by proliferating elitism? All good, except this isn't a real structure. The org is, with the exception of that big hard drive somewhere in Phade's basement, a virtual structure. It's not perfect, but it's a rapidly changing and I dare say an improving structure. And, unless you're Propyro, chances are you're a person who's not chained to the org. It's virtual. Think it's imposing? Leave and try to do better.

The org, while a very large and ambitious body of work, is not a monopolizing organization. It doesn't own AMV's, nor ever will. Nor does it even have a half of them listed.

But I repeat, it is not a real political structure, it's not a country where you live or a company at which you work. You don't depend on the org, the org depends on you. What revolution then?

Face it, were there a need for change that wasn't adequately (though gradually) answered, the org would collapse. In my view, it hasn't, though there's always room to improve.

Lastly, kudos on pointing out the newbie-relation problem. But I have to add this: yea, it's like a grumpy salesman, blahblahyaddayadda EXCEPT:

Where's the market? The org is not a market, we're not salesmen/women, and AMV's aren't a commodity. Think of that. This is sort of a devil's-advocate commentary.

But, really, in the end, it doesn't even matter. I had to... I have to say that it's all perception-based. Upsides, downsides, newbs, elites, it's all how you see it and it's all in how you react to it.

My reaction is... content. I have no big qualms as is, and, let's face it, as long as I keep seeing a vid or two of great quality once in a while, all is good.

Stop complicating things, and KISS.