Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

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You Know Who really
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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by You Know Who really » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:37 pm

Ok so in reading through this post I have a few comments.

I "Grew Up" working with this type of equipment. Meaning I got a job at a Linear Post production house 1 year out of high school back in 1985. I wasn't a video engineer, but I was familiar with the theory of how things worked. So if there are any engineers out there then please correct any mistakes I make. I have worked with 1",Betacam, DVCAM, DVCPRO, M1, M2, 3/4", SVHS, VHS, CMX Editors, Grass Valley Switchers, Various DVE's, etc.

Please excuse me if I say something that has already been addressed.
1) The signal generator that you have is used to...well...generate signals, such as Bars, Black, and Black Burst. Now Black burst is designed to sync up the video signals of the decks so that you can use them with the switcher. It does not sync up the tapes. What you are thinking of is time code, which brings me to point 2
2) It looks like you are using control track for editing and NOT time code. Now control track is a LOT more accurate than just hitting PLAY manually and hoping that everything syncs up, but it still tends to drift. Time code is VERY Accurate, as it involves laying a timecode audio track on the tape itself. So that even if you take the tape out and put it back in the frame that was 00:29:30:15 before is still that same time code. Now to get timecode you need a time code generator. Then you can dub your source tapes to a B-ROLL tape and lay down time code at the same time. Now I "think" S-VHS Deck actually had a time code IN- so it would record to an actual time code track. If not then you could record timecode to channel 2. I know this sucks as you lose a track of audio, but it is more accurate.

Now what I would suggest is that you "Black & Code" your record tape. This involves Sending a black signal and Timecode( usually starting at 00:00:00:00 ) to the tape and recording the whole tape. You can then edit to a tape that has a continuous black and unbroken time code.

3) I think you need to get 1 more deck so that you can do dissolves. Right now with 2 decks, you can only do cuts only editing. Unless you go from a freeze or background.

I hope this helps. Any questions let me know.
I still don't know why anyone would WANT to go back to linear editing. ;)

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by Kionon » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:57 pm

You Know Who really wrote:Ok so in reading through this post I have a few comments.
I hope this helps. Any questions let me know.
I still don't know why anyone would WANT to go back to linear editing. ;)
This is the quality AMV content I come here for. :amv:
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That YouTube Thing.

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by justin_ » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:52 am

You Know Who really wrote:Ok so in reading through this post I have a few comments.
...
1) The signal generator that you have is used to...well...generate signals, such as Bars, Black, and Black Burst. Now Black burst is designed to sync up the video signals of the decks so that you can use them with the switcher. It does not sync up the tapes. What you are thinking of is time code, which brings me to point 2
2) It looks like you are using control track for editing and NOT time code. Now control track is a LOT more accurate than just hitting PLAY manually and hoping that everything syncs up, but it still tends to drift. Time code is VERY Accurate, as it involves laying a timecode audio track on the tape itself. So that even if you take the tape out and put it back in the frame that was 00:29:30:15 before is still that same time code. Now to get timecode you need a time code generator. Then you can dub your source tapes to a B-ROLL tape and lay down time code at the same time. Now I "think" S-VHS Deck actually had a time code IN- so it would record to an actual time code track. If not then you could record timecode to channel 2. I know this sucks as you lose a track of audio, but it is more accurate.

Now what I would suggest is that you "Black & Code" your record tape. This involves Sending a black signal and Timecode( usually starting at 00:00:00:00 ) to the tape and recording the whole tape. You can then edit to a tape that has a continuous black and unbroken time code.

3) I think you need to get 1 more deck so that you can do dissolves. Right now with 2 decks, you can only do cuts only editing. Unless you go from a freeze or background.

I hope this helps. Any questions let me know.
I still don't know why anyone would WANT to go back to linear editing. ;)
1) That definitely sounds more accurate. I was just trying to give my best guess as to what may be going on.
2)The decks I am using do have a timecode in on them. I will ask around at work to see if there is a timecode generator laying around, they should know what I am looking for. I kinda have an idea, but the internet really does not have much information on linear editing, let alone the more hidden tricks (aka proper setup) of it. That is part of the reason I am doing this, I want to put some information online about it.

3)As far as 3 goes the edit deck manual claims that it can do a-b edits in two separate goes, first with the A tape, then second with the B tape, but yes I do want to get my hands on another deck. There is likely one at work, but it is in an offsite storage unit if they have it and people don't often go there. I would go there myself but I don't have a car :P.

Hopefully I will make some progress soon, but at the same time school has started up and I have almost no time to do stuff like this.

Like I said I want to do this to get some information out there about this era of video editing, not just for AMVs, but for anything really. I think that I may start a YouTube series of me setting up and attempting to use this stuff. In addition to that, i've always loved old AV gear and I kinda just want to play with it and see what it was like. Of course it is more limited and challenging, but that is part of the fun :)

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by You Know Who really » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:30 pm

justin_ wrote: 1) That definitely sounds more accurate. I was just trying to give my best guess as to what may be going on.
2)The decks I am using do have a timecode in on them. I will ask around at work to see if there is a timecode generator laying around, they should know what I am looking for. I kinda have an idea, but the internet really does not have much information on linear editing, let alone the more hidden tricks (aka proper setup) of it. That is part of the reason I am doing this, I want to put some information online about it.

3)As far as 3 goes the edit deck manual claims that it can do a-b edits in two separate goes, first with the A tape, then second with the B tape, but yes I do want to get my hands on another deck. There is likely one at work, but it is in an offsite storage unit if they have it and people don't often go there. I would go there myself but I don't have a car :P.

Hopefully I will make some progress soon, but at the same time school has started up and I have almost no time to do stuff like this.

Like I said I want to do this to get some information out there about this era of video editing, not just for AMVs, but for anything really. I think that I may start a YouTube series of me setting up and attempting to use this stuff. In addition to that, i've always loved old AV gear and I kinda just want to play with it and see what it was like. Of course it is more limited and challenging, but that is part of the fun :)
OK great. So if your deck has time code then it has its own timecode generator. so all you hve to do is "dub" your footage from the original tape to another tape in the SVHS deck. It should generate its own timecode as you record to it. Then use the dub as your source. It should have timecode on the tape. I know that means going down a generation but it is more accurate.

How many decks do you have in total? I thought I saw only 2 decks. (1 playback and 1 record) if you have 3 decks then yes you can do dissolves. 2 playback and 1 record. The only way to do a 1 deck dissolve was with pre-read. But that was only available starting with Digi-Beta.

Anyway Good luck. I still think you should just do it with a Non-Linear System, but to each his own. Any other questions, just ask.

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by You Know Who really » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:25 pm

Also what are the model numbers of the decks. I cant tell from the picture.

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by justin_ » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:59 am

I only have two decks, one for playback and one recording. Looking through the manual it has a section on "Applying digital effects while switching between two scenes with only one player-Self A-Roll editing". I haven't looked into it too much or attempted it at all so I'm not sure exactly what its limits are.

Anyway the two tape decks are Panasonic DS545 and Panasonic DS555. The 545 is the playback VCR and 555 is the one with recording capabilities. I would just go out and buy another but even though these are old VCRs they still commonly go for $200 to $300 or even more on eBay as they are quite high end and there's a limited number of VCRs remaining out there that can actually do this type of editing. I don't know if or why there is a demand for that type of VCR but they're not cheap.

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by MaboroshiStudio » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:59 am

justin_ wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:59 am
justin_ wrote:I only have two decks, one for playback and one recording. Looking through the manual it has a section on "Applying digital effects while switching between two scenes with only one player-Self A-Roll editing". I haven't looked into it too much or attempted it at all so I'm not sure exactly what its limits are.

Anyway the two tape decks are Panasonic DS545 and Panasonic DS555. The 545 is the playback VCR and 555 is the one with recording capabilities. I would just go out and buy another but even though these are old VCRs they still commonly go for $200 to $300 or even more on eBay as they are quite high end and there's a limited number of VCRs remaining out there that can actually do this type of editing. I don't know if or why there is a demand for that type of VCR but they're not cheap.
Yeah AG-1980's are still pricey on ebay and those were prosumer models...
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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by justin_ » Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:50 am

Has it really been 2 months since I posted? WOW! Long story short I have been VERY busy with school the last few months, but now that it is winter break I should have more time to play. Just a quick update tonight, ill give a longer one once I get the chance to mess with the gear more (hopefully by this weekend) I need to be up in 6 1/2 hours to go to work, I don't really have time for more fun.

Anyway today I got the keys to my works storage locker and I went and finally got a third VCR! Now I can do a/b cuts and I think I can more accurately add sound to my videos. I can't control the CD player very well but now I should be able to record the sound to one tape and the video to another then just record them to the output tape with the timecode controls.

I should be ordering some cables from monoprice soon to hook up the 3rd VCR and replace some of the more iffy cables i've been using.

As I said, there should be lots more updates the next few weeks.

Also I am wondering how much interest there would be in me bringing this to a Con and showing it off? Im not going to say what con, i'm not even 100% im going to be able to make it even without the gear and the board of the con knows nothing about this as of right now, but I am thinking about dragging this whole setup to a con and trying to see if I can set it up somewhere.

Here is a quick photo of it all (mostly) setup again in my new place
Image
Yes I now have a ratchet strap holding the CRTs to the top of the cart just in case

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by justin_ » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:21 am

Well I was hoping to have a bit more of an update this week (and I still might get more done before work this week) but I have at least made some more progress! I now have the 3rd VTR all setup (almost, I need one more audio cable, but I can see how it will all work)!

Image

A bit of a tour on the new rack from top to bottom I have
A CD player for audio. I may get a tape player just so it's all analog, but who knows
The CRT on the left shows what is in the first playback VRT. The CRT on the right shows what's in the second playback VTR.
The small CRT on the left shows the control deck. The small CRT in the middle shows the overlay generator. The small CRT on the right shows the record VTR
The last CRT can switch between any of the small CRT sources (the small CRTs provide a preview basically)
Next is the shelf the CRT is on, then below that is the power strip with a master on/off switch
Below that is the Sony control deck and effects generator
Kinda hidden in the dark below that we have a black 1 -> 20 distribution amp that sends sync to all the devices
Then we have the overlay generator with a mouse and keyboard
Here we have the playback VTR 1
Next is playback VTR 2
And last we have the record VTR.

I've actually realised that I can combine these parts in interesting ways to produce effects. For example I can use the overlay generator to put green boxes on the input from playback VRT 1, then use the control deck to green screen that source and overlay something from playback deck 2. This hardware is surprisingly capable, though almost nothing is documented.

Well now that I finally have it back together I am hoping to finally get back to trying to edit something. Hopefully I will post again in under 2 months :/

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by justin_ » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:23 am

Just a quick note here, the distribution amp is actually below the overlay generator, not above it.

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by You Know Who really » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:14 pm

looks great. Congrats on the 3rd deck. It will make life a whole lot easier. I love the keyboard on the floor. LOL. I believe I've had to edit like that sometimes.

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by You Know Who really » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:19 pm

Also as far as manuals, you should be able to find them online. just doing a quick search I found the sony FXE-120 doc at this site . https://www.manualslib.com/products/Son ... 48638.html

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by seasons » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:02 pm

justin_ wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:50 am
Also I am wondering how much interest there would be in me bringing this to a Con and showing it off? Im not going to say what con, i'm not even 100% im going to be able to make it even without the gear and the board of the con knows nothing about this as of right now, but I am thinking about dragging this whole setup to a con and trying to see if I can set it up somewhere.
A lot of questions about this idea but first and foremost, how would you manage to actually take all of this anywhere at all?

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by justin_ » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:16 am

seasons wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:02 pm
justin_ wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:50 am
Also I am wondering how much interest there would be in me bringing this to a Con...
A lot of questions about this idea but first and foremost, how would you manage to actually take all of this anywhere at all?
Assuming everything works out (I can make it, the con is willing to host it, etc) the idea is to put it in a small UHaul trailer and drag it behind a truck. I live in a college town with only about 60k people, so while we are not all that close to any cons we have people that like to go to them. Every year there are 1-2 groups of 8-10 people from my university that go, we split the cost of fuel and hotel so we can all afford it and we have a good time. Back in early December I got ahold of one of the people that often drives and he told me that if he goes he wouldn't mind dragging a trailer if I make it worth it for him (pay an extra share of fuel and pay for his entry or something like that).

I really want to bring it over, and I think it would be really fun, but it will cost me a fair bit. $120 + insurance for the UHaul, probably 2 shares of about $120 for fuel, $150 for the hotel, $75 for food, and some cash to blow while i'm there. It wouldn't surprise me if the trip cost me $800-$1,000 all in.

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Re: Im going to edit an AMV on VHS with a setup that cost over $25,000 in the 90's

Post by justin_ » Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:22 am

You Know Who really wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:19 pm
Also as far as manuals, you should be able to find them online. just doing a quick search I found the sony FXE-120 doc at this site . https://www.manualslib.com/products/Son ... 48638.html
I do have the manual, I actually printed it and got it bound, but there seems to be a lot that the deck can do that is either not documented, or is not technically supported. I've found a few tricks with it while just messing around, at the same time sometimes I struggle to do things that are documented in the manual. It is an odd manual, there is very little text on how to do things, most of the directions are just a series of photos of what buttons to press. Also it is possible to combine features to make it do even more things (only a few are actually documented).

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