I wish scientists would just make up their mind.

derek_t · Post by **derek_t** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:51 pm

CaTaClYsM wrote:Why am I?

You tell me first, Why must there be a why?

Savia · Post by **Savia** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:09 pm

Everything has a why, that the question 'why' can be asked of it.

CaTaClYsM · Post by **CaTaClYsM** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:20 pm

jonmartensen wrote:Since the complexity is beyond our understanding, it must be due to God.

Or is that that you can't concede the fact that science doesn't have all the answers either?

Savia · Post by **Savia** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:23 pm

CaTaClYsM wrote:
jonmartensen wrote:Since the complexity is beyond our understanding, it must be due to God.
Or is that that you can't concede the fact that science doesn't have all the answers either?

Unfortunately, no amount of understanding of particle physics will ever explain developmental economics.

SSJVegita0609 · Post by **SSJVegita0609** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:16 pm

CaTaClYsM wrote:Riddle me this. If I came from non'living matter. Why and I cognative of my existence? I should logically be like a machine or a rock rolling down a hill. Only in motion because I'm simply a mass of matter obeying the laws of physics. And if that were the case, I wouldn't be cognative of my existence. However, it is an indesputable fact that I am. So tell me. Why am I?

Because our neurons have sodium-potassium pumps that are far more advanced and interconnected (not to metion abundant) than those of most basic animals. Couple that with our nifty subdivided brains and diverse amount of nuerotransmitters (dopamine, seratonin, etc), throw in the hippocampus and the hypothalmus, and you got yourself a winning, congnative organism. How did we get all this you ask? Well, thank good ole natural selection and mutation + a couple hundred million years for that one, those of us born with better brains were able to survive better than those of us who weren't, and thus only the better brainers were able to pass on their genes to their offspring.

Study some biology mofo.

GO SCIENCE!

jonmartensen · Post by **jonmartensen** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:30 pm

CaTaClYsM wrote:
jonmartensen wrote:Since the complexity is beyond our understanding, it must be due to God.
Or is that that you can't concede the fact that science doesn't have all the answers either?

No, that would be delusional.

trythil · Post by **trythil** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:10 am

SSJVegita0609 wrote:
CaTaClYsM wrote:Riddle me this. If I came from non'living matter. Why and I cognative of my existence? I should logically be like a machine or a rock rolling down a hill. Only in motion because I'm simply a mass of matter obeying the laws of physics. And if that were the case, I wouldn't be cognative of my existence. However, it is an indesputable fact that I am. So tell me. Why am I?
Because our neurons have sodium-potassium pumps that are far more advanced and interconnected (not to metion abundant) than those of most basic animals. Couple that with our nifty subdivided brains and diverse amount of nuerotransmitters (dopamine, seratonin, etc), throw in the hippocampus and the hypothalmus, and you got yourself a winning, congnative organism. How did we get all this you ask? Well, thank good ole natural selection and mutation + a couple hundred million years for that one, those of us born with better brains were able to survive better than those of us who weren't, and thus only the better brainers were able to pass on their genes to their offspring.

I'm sorry, but that really isn't valid, and I hope you weren't making it to be a valid explanation.

Evolutionary systems and cellular automata -- e.g. genetic algorithms, John Conway's Life -- work, and work surprisingly well. They show that evolution is a valid process and that the "survival of the fittest" rule will lead to products that are the most suited for their environment.

The problem is that both of these techniques require a (comparatively) extremely precise starting point. For a genetic algorithm you must provide precise specifications of what you want. For Life, you must (1) provide a starting pattern that won't kill itself out; (2) sometimes you must manually tweak patterns at some generation to achieve the desired result. All kinds of cool things can happen automagically in Life (e.g. shuttles, infinitely-expanding patterns (glider guns, puffer trains, spacefillers), logic gates, specialized computers), but they all require manual tweaking at some point.

This relates to your argument in the following manner.

How likely is it that, just by chance, a bunch of organic molecules would clump together to form a DNA strand? How about an RNA strand (all types)? What's the probability of forming an enzyme to "unzip" the DNA strand for duplicaton if I just take the primary elemental constitutents of organic chemistry and mix them in a test tube? How likely is it that, just by chance, we'd evolve that elaborate system of codons and anticodons that ensure that we don't fuck up the DNA transcription and duplication process too badly?

How about the process of protein synthesis from DNA via transfer RNA? How likely is it that all those amino acids would just somehow find a way to arrange themselves in patterns that could be easily re-created for continuing protein synthesis?

How about the myriad of ways by which proteins organize themselves?

I'm not going to force one religious belief over another. I'm not really practicing any religion.

I do, however, believe that there must have been some external, intelligent force that guided the creation of all these systems. (Or, if not "guided", at least provided the catalyzing event.)

--

In any case, writing all that out made me realize how stupid this argument is. So here's more carefully-calculated spam-striking.

--

Baby tonight
you surfed into my site
(sweet lover)
Oh my oh my
You are the king of the nite
(web lover)

I know I know what you need it
I do I do what you wanna, princess
I know I know feel my heartbeat
Beatin just for you!!!!

To be your blonde girl
webby webby girl
and with me this love be forever your
a cha cha lovely girl
virtual hootchie girl
life will be so crazy play the game, I'm ready
Be your blonde girl
double ww girl
cybernetic love in a cyber world
to feel it everywhere
in the air
chiki chiki hot blonde girl!!!

Babe tonight
the game is over, surprise!!!!
Tomorrow
you will be mine again
connecting my site

I know I know what you need it
I do I do what you wanna, princess
I know I know feel my heartbeat
Beatin just for you!!!!

To be your blonde girl
webby webby girl
and with me this love be forever your
a cha cha lovely girl
virtual hootchie girl
life will be so crazy play the game, I'm ready
Be your blonde girl
double ww girl
cybernetic love in a cyber world
to feel it everywhere
in the air
chiki chiki hot blonde girl!!!

CaTaClYsM · Post by **CaTaClYsM** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:20 am

I'd take you seriously were you not so profoundly indifferent. Don't you have some whining and complaining about the OP system to be doing.

trythil · Post by **trythil** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:54 am

CaTaClYsM wrote:I'd take you seriously were you not so profoundly indifferent. Don't you have some whining and complaining about the OP system to be doing.

People give you my life through music
Feel the rhythm tonight, I'm crazy
Para para deep in my heart
I must be Tokyo's superstar

C'mon, I give you love, you give me energy
When I'm dancing on stage, you make me feel free
Tender devotion and desire
Give you every night

Oh baby, Nori nori nori
Singing for the glory
Para para dancing eurobeat (uoo ooo!)

Nori nori nori
Baby, don't be sorry
Para para music, baby take me higher

Nori nori nori
Life is not a story
Para para dancing eurobeat (uoo ooo!)

Nori nori nori
Baby, don't be sorry
Para para music, baby light my fire!

Baby, take me tonight, I'm ready
Feel my passion, no, don't be lazy
Para para, deep in my mind
I wanna love you Tokyo guys!

C'mon, I give you love, you give me energy
When I'm dancing on stage, you make me feel free
Tender devotion and desire
Give you every night

Oh baby, Nori nori nori
Singing for the glory
Para para dancing eurobeat (uoo ooo!)

Nori nori nori
Baby, don't be sorry
Para para music, baby take me higher

Nori nori nori
Life is not a story
Para para dancing eurobeat (uoo ooo!)

Nori nori nori
Baby, don't be sorry
Para para music, baby light my fire!

Tab. · Post by **Tab.** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:56 am

trythil wrote: People give you my life through music
Feel the rhythm tonight, I'm crazy
Para para deep in my heart
I must be Tokyo's superstar

C'mon, I give you love, you give me energy
When I'm dancing on stage, you make me feel free
Tender devotion and desire
Give you every night

Oh baby, Nori nori nori
Singing for the glory
Para para dancing eurobeat (uoo ooo!)

Nori nori nori
Baby, don't be sorry
Para para music, baby take me higher

Nori nori nori
Life is not a story
Para para dancing eurobeat (uoo ooo!)

Nori nori nori
Baby, don't be sorry
Para para music, baby light my fire!

Baby, take me tonight, I'm ready
Feel my passion, no, don't be lazy
Para para, deep in my mind
I wanna love you Tokyo guys!

C'mon, I give you love, you give me energy
When I'm dancing on stage, you make me feel free
Tender devotion and desire
Give you every night

Oh baby, Nori nori nori
Singing for the glory
Para para dancing eurobeat (uoo ooo!)

Nori nori nori
Baby, don't be sorry
Para para music, baby take me higher

Nori nori nori
Life is not a story
Para para dancing eurobeat (uoo ooo!)

Nori nori nori
Baby, don't be sorry
Para para music, baby light my fire!

Good song.

Btw, some may wish to read here.