American POW vids

[Dark Dragon]

I have not seen all parts of the footage but I have not seen ANY news that would indicate those POWs would have been killed after combat (some reported shot in the forehead but people do get shot in the head in war). Most likely some bodies were taken as propaganda tools after combat.

If you'd say what is true, then every news agency around the world would be writing about it all the time.

You're right about one thing, you haven't seen nor read anything, nor do you know what those Iraqi's do to their prisonors, for all everyone knows they could all be dead you dimwit.

And no, because that would only fuel the fire for Anti-Americans so of course the smart media wouldn't show that sick shit and the army wouldn't let that out, it's probably bad enough for the families wondering if it's their husband, son, brother, uncle or other loved one getting caught, shot or maimed, it's bad enough fearing your loved one is in danger, but knowing that they are being tortured is to much, even for most people. So I say it shouldn't be shown, having to hear about it is bad enough.

[buddykiller]

I have not seen all parts of the footage but I have not seen ANY news that would indicate those POWs would have been killed after combat (some reported shot in the forehead but people do get shot in the head in war). Most likely some bodies were taken as propaganda tools after combat.

If you'd say what is true, then every news agency around the world would be writing about it all the time.

You're right about one thing, you haven't seen nor read anything, nor do you know what those Iraqi's do to their prisonors, for all everyone knows they could all be dead you dimwit.

And no, because that would only fuel the fire for Anti-Americans so of course the smart media wouldn't show that sick shit and the army wouldn't let that out, it's probably bad enough for the families wondering if it's their husband, son, brother, uncle or other loved one getting caught, shot or maimed, it's bad enough fearing your loved one is in danger, but knowing that they are being tortured is to much, even for most people. So I say it shouldn't be shown, having to hear about it is bad enough.

i said something about this earlier, they iraqis at least can't kill them because we have proof that they have them and we can hold them responsible for them, like i said, at least they can't go "oh uh privat smith uh yea we never seen him" yanno? (and no, i don't know ANY of the pows name but i hope there isn't one named smith o_O ) so i guess thats kinda a good thing about that tape existing...

[Dannywilson]

Ok. I'm not gonna argue with fucking idiots on this any more. If you don't read/watch the goddamned news, dont make any comments. If you just feel like making misinformed comments, keep your damn mouth shut. Ok. All the bodies had very evident non-combat wounds. If you get shot in the head in war, you stop bleeding from other wounds. And you dont bleed with exception of blood drainage from these other wounds, especially if they are inflicted after the head shot. Also, long range rifle wounds look much different from short range rifle wounds, or short range pistol wounds (powder burn, entry and exit wound size and shape, etc.). Did I forget to mention the kevlar helmets? Get your damn facts straight if you want to put up a decent argument for me.

Buddykiller, to point out something about the geneva convention earlier. The torture itself is much more important than the fact some piss-pot tv station showed it. It is not the Genova convention, it is the Geneva convention. As in Geneva Switzerland, where all international summits on treaties, and matters of multinational law are held. And yes, they did break it. I have to go through Law Of Armed Conflict classses once a year, and at least a third of the class is based around the Geneva convention, and the international laws protecting prisoners of international states. I can honestly say I know what I'm talking about. Yes, they did break it. And no, we have not broken it yet with our threatment of Iraqi prisoners.

[Simpi]

If you'd say what is true, then every news agency around the world would be writing about it all the time.

You're right about one thing, you haven't seen nor read anything, nor do you know what those Iraqi's do to their prisonors, for all everyone knows they could all be dead you dimwit.

And no, because that would only fuel the fire for Anti-Americans so of course the smart media wouldn't show that sick shit and the army wouldn't let that out, it's probably bad enough for the families wondering if it's their husband, son, brother, uncle or other loved one getting caught, shot or maimed, it's bad enough fearing your loved one is in danger, but knowing that they are being tortured is to much, even for most people. So I say it shouldn't be shown, having to hear about it is bad enough.

Media? I thought everyone was screaming of 'liberal' & 'dissent' media. I think so called 'liberal' media would not hesitate showing footage that shows americans in a bad light.

I would like to raise a question about medias neutrality, fairness and accuracy. Is it good journalism that FOX news tell's people to 'support the war effort or shut up'?

I'm not saying world would be a better place if, say CNN, would show one hour of Iraqi news & Saddam propaganda. Most likely nobody here would notice it but at least it would serve as a wake up call from news 'stupor' many people are suffering atm.

Soldiers: We are in the mercy of western media (at least after US troops drop a bomb on Al-Jazeera like happened in Afganistan) and one of the examples is this. I read a finnish newspaper which had two pages telling about dead american soldiers, their 'martyr' stories and how all POWs are really nice guys, like apple pie and do not deserve to be prisoners because 'I think they did not want hurt anybody'. I turned a page and looked if there were similiar for Iraqi soldiers. There was not, showing us the whole 'we vs. them logic'

One finnish paper (though i'm quite sure the article was supplied by an international news agency) even mentioned that Iraqi units that attack supply convoys use 'terror tactics', which of course is a load of crap. Face it. In time of great crisis, people will most likely rally behind their leader, no matter how despicable.

US has a superior, overwhelming, technilogically advanced force. Iraqis are fighting the war by any means necesarry because they are fighting for their home with their significantly weaker force. I have not seen any suggestion that Iraq would have killed any POWs, a dead soldier on TV does not mean he was killed while in custody (and wounded soldier on tv does not mean he was beaten up while in custody).

Iraq has not killed any innocent US & Kuwaiti civilians either (they did fire missiles on Kuwait but whether or not they aimed military targets, I don't have information). Americans are invading and Iraqis are defending themselves. As Buddykiller said, tape is the best protection of POWs.

[HungryCrackPot]

Tericocktyl?

Dark Dragon, your sig image is too large. Shrink it down, or the mods will ban you and hit your infants face with a battle mace.

[jonmartensen]

I have not seen any suggestion that Iraq would have killed any POWs, a dead soldier on TV does not mean he was killed while in custody (and wounded soldier on tv does not mean he was beaten up while in custody).

Iraq has not killed any innocent US & Kuwaiti civilians either (they did fire missiles on Kuwait but whether or not they aimed military targets, I don't have information). Americans are invading and Iraqis are defending themselves. As Buddykiller said, tape is the best protection of POWs.

This shows that your media does censor, or rather, edit out, explicit parts. I think that when I talk about seeing the US soldiers, and being able to tell that they have been executed, and other people say you can't tell, they are making that judgment from their censored media coverage. If you want to see everything, from both sides, well, I'm not going to post the link, it's a sick website anyways. The soldiers were executed, with a single shot to the head. Your media does censor the news, because they actually have respect for the dead. Whether the media is liberal or conservative, they usually have at least a little respect

Tape is obviously not any form of protection for the US POW's. They were glad (as can be seen in the footage when one Iraqi soldier rolls a dead US soldier over)

Dannywilson is right, don't be an uninformed poster (this is for everyone)
There are to many of you just stating "I think this" or "I think that", but you don't know anything.

[MCWagner]

Hmm... I need to stop by here more frequently...

Maybe because military announcements are all lies today?
I guess nobody believes the media anymore since gulf war I and the Kosovo conflict.
These statements about "precise weapons", "no civillian kills", etc. are all propaganda,

Uh, yeah, but not propaganda from the US officials. Point me to anyone who said there would be no civillian casualties and I'll show you someone without any military training or speaking from any official position. Oh and the bus bombing? Horribly unfortunate, but if you actually read the report, you'll note that the missile WAS accurate. They were trying to blow up a bridge, and the bus, unseen before, came onto the bridge AFTER the missle had been fired, but before it hit. Saying the missile was imprecise is like blaming the bullet when a civillian walks into the sights of a sniper after the bullet has been fired.

would've been better if they told the truth because this "psycological warfare" is nothing but a joke. Saddam does much better in it, just look at the POWs (as sad at it may be).

Depends on how you judge the psycological warfare. For our part it's an attempt to convince the enemy that A) their fight is hopeless and B) if they surrender, they won't be mistreated (or they can even "drop their weapons and go home" if they want) and C) the US won't be targeting civillians. B and C are true, and we're working on A. As a result, there've been a lot of surrenders, and even one incident where an Iraqi division slaughtered their officers so they wouldn't have to fight.

By later I mean 2-4 weeks....
The crisis about this war isn't that Iraq is attacked, it's beacuse Bush disgusted Americas allies. The UN appointed an ultimatum for saddam for April the 17th, so 4 weeks after the ultimatum Bush wanted.
Those four weeks would have been enough for Saddam to show his true intentions and leave the inspectors more time to reveal illegal weapon factories.

Why? Saddam had already demonstrated years of non-cooperation with the inspections. The inspectors had one job, find out if Saddam had disarmed like he was supposed to. It's not necessary that they find everything, just something significant. If a police officer finds someone out on parole with a handgun, we don't need to wait until their whole house is searched before we arrest them. Like I said previously "Good job, now get out...the tanks are coming."

The US government's evidence on Saddams actions seemed a little bit improvisational or turned out as false.

What about the inspector's evidence?

With Bush's rash declaration of war he not only skated over the UN, but also the US constitution.

Uh, no, actually. The US congress authorized US military action in Iraq over a year ago.

And to risk something serious just for a few weeks is IMHO idiotic.
This all isn't about indications, it's about facts and chances.
These four weeks would have also been crucial to ensure help for the Iraqi civilians during and after the war.
Predictions are, that the main catastrophe will appear after the war, when electricity and water supply is destroyed.
Gladfully US military didn't attack those facilities yet...not yet.

OK, let me make sure I understand you. Military action against a tyrrannical despot suspected of breaking treaties, flaunting UN authority, torturing his own citizens to death, and building contraban weapons should be put off to avoid hurt feelings. Personally, I place the lives of the fighting forces and the civillians in the country at a higher premium than the hurt feelings of people entirely unrelated to the conflict.

War is all about timing. The difference between a bloodless incursion and a disasterous slaughter can be a few weeks. What could have been done? Let's look at what was done with the UN delays that WERE respected. In the UN-imposed weeks of delay prior to this war, Saddam began bussing members of the feyadeen and the Republican Guard out to the more unstable units in order to prevent surrenders. Several units who might have given up peacefully are now pulling stunts like fake surrender-ambushes. Had more time been allowed, the feyadeen might have been able to form more "irregular" companies out of civillian Iraqis pressed into service.

The year of delays beforehand was made up of one-or-two month blocks of "then we'll really get serious" delays, all piled up on one another. There's no reason to expect that the latest one wouldn't be delayed for another...and another...and another. Some of that may have been necessary to saturate Iraq with the message that troops wouldn't be shooting/bombing civillians, but let it go on too long and the people will think that the UN didn't have the guts to actually get rid of Saddam.

What makes me even more angry is the fact that people, and especially the US looked away from Saddam and let him do as he pleased.
And now, all of a sudden Saddam is the bad guy again and has to be stopped IMMEDIATELY. After such a long time of waiting?

The fact that Saddam was allowed to stay in power after the first Gulf War, even when we knew exactly what kind of a bastard he was, represents a massive betrayal of the Iraqi people by the entire international community. I agree completely that this should have been done long ago. Waiting any longer would have been a further betrayal.

Thats the minority problem I mentioned, and if you read my statement closely, you would've recognized that I mentioned this isn't really an option.

Uh, yeah. I was agreeing with you, and saying why.

I don't see how this type of invasion with Saddam still in 'power' of Iraq is going to do any good. I would have liked to see him weakened a lot more before this happened.

How? What could have weakened him short of a war?

Do you still believe war is fair?

In this day and age, when it's fought against Americans, you can count on the Americans to be fair. The other side you can't always be sure of.

If you'd say what is true, then every news agency around the world would be writing about it all the time.

Evidence at the moment is sketchy. It may be slanted reporting that's not mentioning what evidence there is, or it may be cautious reporting that doesn't want to have to retract an enormous mistake later. I haven't seen the evidence myself, so I can't comment further.

Soldiers: We are in the mercy of western media (at least after US troops drop a bomb on Al-Jazeera like happened in Afganistan) and one of the examples is this. I read a finnish newspaper which had two pages telling about dead american soldiers, their 'martyr' stories and how all POWs are really nice guys, like apple pie and do not deserve to be prisoners because 'I think they did not want hurt anybody'. I turned a page and looked if there were similiar for Iraqi soldiers. There was not, showing us the whole 'we vs. them logic'

Uh, this may surprise you, but we don't know any stories about the Iraqi casualties individually. Thus far, there've been, what, 36 troops killed in action? That's enough to visit each one individually, and every home-town newspaper is going to want to interview the family. Now, how do you suggest we do the same for the Iraqi soldiers, when their military govt. is having trouble just keeping track of all their living troops?

As far as press bias...yes the press is biased. The fact that they're run by human beings and not calculators means that the people involved are going to have views on the events, and those views will affect their work. Fact of life. Oh, and the US have not bombed any TV stations, water plants or electrical switching stations. The state-run TV stations are still going. You can take their word for it, if you prefer...I just don't think it'll exactly be less biased...

[Dannywilson]

Thank you Wagner, you put the thoughts in my head into words. This is what I was trying to say all along. I, even as a military memeber, don't agree with all facets of this war, but I am willing to stand up for what is right, rather than question the "wrong".

[buddykiller]

Buddykiller, to point out something about the geneva convention earlier. The torture itself is much more important than the fact some piss-pot tv station showed it. It is not the Genova convention, it is the Geneva convention. As in Geneva Switzerland, where all international summits on treaties, and matters of multinational law are held. And yes, they did break it. I have to go through Law Of Armed Conflict classses once a year, and at least a third of the class is based around the Geneva convention, and the international laws protecting prisoners of international states. I can honestly say I know what I'm talking about. Yes, they did break it. And no, we have not broken it yet with our threatment of Iraqi prisoners.

i can't fuckin' spell so sue me o_O and uhm yea, if they broke it than we broke it, i'm not talkin bout killing or anything like that, just based on the humiliation factor, and yanno, being paraded around with your hands on your head being searched and gun point ect... thats gotta be pretty fucking humilating so we broke it and they broke it, and i was refering to the defense that the cnn anchorman used about it being shown inside this country only and the wives/families of the iraqi pows couldn't see it, well, based on that than iraq didn't break it, because iraq only broadcasted it to iraq and then al jezeera broadcasted it to the rest of the world, i do watch the news, if i'm not on here i'm flipping between cnn and msnbc O_O

[Titus]

I just want to say that anyone that thinks that The Coalition forces should not take down the current Iraqi regime should take a look at the news and watch the video that was broadcast in Iraq, of American soldiers who have been taken prisoner. They were executed and piled up and some interagated on camera. I know some people are going to say that this woudnt have happened if we were not fighting this war, but i want to remind you that this happens to the Iraqi civilians everyday who do not support Husen and his men. I am just appaled at this video and I am also fed up with the anti-war protests going on around the country. You people need to take a real look at what happens over there every day and quit blaming this war on oil. I dont care that oil prices are on the rise...I only support the troops in combat who are fighting to keep men like Sadam from infringeing on the freedoms that we enjoy everyday.

No sensable person who is against the war is also against United States Soldiers.

In fact, the reason for a lot of the protests is to keep our soldiers safe.

And no i am not against the war. it is Seemingly the only way out of the situation we are in right now.

The situation would'nt be so damn bad either if we had'nt let it get that way.