New Recommended AMVs Topic: Narrative

[DriftRoot]

I hope I have not misunderstood you, DriftRoot, and that I do not sound argumentative.

You kind of understood me very well, we’re actually agreeing on several points. We just disagree on their ramifications. hehe

Argumentative is one thing, discussing a topic for the sake of discussing a topic is another. I’m doing the latter. I don‘t like to argue with people, it gives me the uncomfortable feeling that there‘s going to be a “winner“ and a “loser“ at some point and if that’s going to happen, I’d rather not say anything at all. I’m a Libra, we love harmony and balance and stuff…however, we also love to be overly analytical:

Clearly, the Narrative category would not go under "popular show." That leaves "genre" and "style."

What do you mean it wouldn't go under "popular show?" A great Princess Tutu video can't have a great storyline? I would argue that it's those kinds of videos that stand out from the crowd when considering notable AMVs from specific series.

Webster defines "genre" as follows:
1: kind, sort
2: a category of artistic, musical, or literary composition characterized by a particular style, form, or content

The Narrative category of music videos is characterized by its recognizable storyline or plot (content or form).

Discussion about what kinds of AMVs warrant their own categories has been ongoing for quite some time. You start making the case for too many things which can already be described by existing genres and things get really messy, really fast. Justifying a category because it's a "kind" or "sort" (two very short words) isn't good enough. Is a category for satirical videos appropriate? War-themed videos? AMV Hell videos? (Now there's one that's been suggested and that I personally would like to see implemented.) The general argument has been that if the proposed category can already be accommodated under one (or more) of the others, then there's no need for it. The recommended forum is a little different case - it splits some existing categories into further ones - but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.

Argument 2 was, I repeat, that the Narrative category is too subjective. Firstly, I will point out that some categories are subjective by nature, such as "sentimental."
…
But this may be a moot point, for I have been attempting to define the Narrative video objectively from the beginning. In short, it is a video that was created to communicate to its audience a story, and that does so successfully (if the audience can't find a storyline, it wasn't a success).”
We all watch movies--we know a plot when we see it. Whether we do it objectively or subjectively doesn't really matter as long as most of us can tell at the end of the day. Besides, usually when people intend for there to be a story in their video, they include something about it in their comments. That makes it even easier.

You just sort of proved my point about not introducing a category which can inherently be argued over.

Firstly, you can fail to move someone emotionally with your video and have agreement that it was intended to be a sentimental video. Same thing with horror - just because you weren’t scared doesn’t mean it wasn’t a horror video. Watched an effects video? Hard to argue about whether it has effects. But storyline? Just because YOU say it has a storyline doesn’t mean the next person thinks it does. Succeed or fail, a drama/action/romance/horror/etc. video can usually be identified as such. For instances where that can’t be determined, we have the “other” category.

Secondly, a narrative video (which certainly DO exist) is dependent upon the creator’s skill at bringing a story forward, not to mention the viewer’s ability to comprehend a storyline. To say a category for narrative videos should exist is to say that a category should exist which pre-supposes success. The other categories do NOT presuppose success to be valid as categories. You seem to agree with this.

From the Sentimental Videos thread in the Rec forum:

amvs that contain sentimental themes - i.e. ones that are not quite dramatic and not quite romantic. These can be sympathetic or uplifting depending on the video.

According to what you quoted, the “sentimental” category exists because there are videos wouldn’t fit well into either the dramatic or romantic categories I’d like to see the narrative video that experiences a similar problem.

This is a side note, so I'll stick it at the end:

Right now one can argue over whether a video deserves to be recommended as the best in its field, but it's much harder to argue over whether it deserves to be in the category it's placed in.

To the contrary, logically it should be nigh impossible to convincingly argue that a video is the best in its field if one cannot convincingly argue that it belongs in that field at all.
Also, the category definitions at the beginning of each section of the Rec Forum help people determine what category a video falls into, if the video is not already labeled by its creator or if it is not intuitively obvious. Deciding which video you think is the best and coming up with proof requires more thought and effort.

Hopefully I’m not misunderstanding you, but that’s it exactly. Again, the definition of narrative success CAN be argued over. One person can recommend a video because they feel it has a great storyline and another person can watch it and see no storyline worth noting. “Storyline” runs the gamut from in-your-face, play-by-play types to those that have very subtle, but excellent, presentation. Which kind of "narrative" are you talking about saying is "narrative"? Is one not more valid than the other as a strong narrative? Is a subtle narrative inherently inferior to a knock-you-over-the-head-with-a-brick narrative? Would someone watch an AMV with a subtle narrative and completely fail to see any narrative at all? So many questions.

Compare this to a video which is chock full of lip synching - if it’s recommended as a lip-synched video then you know darn well it’s going to have lip synching. It’s going to be unmistakable. There is going to be NO question as to what that video is doing in that category. Yeah, it could be bad lip-synching, but it’s still recognizable as lip-synching and the burden of proof, as it were, falls on the individual to defend why they nominated it, NOT why it belongs in that category.

In any case, you posted a thread suggesting a "Narrative" category in the Recommended forum. Now we just have to wait to see what happens. Debating the matter until we're blue in the face isn't really going to do either of us much good, because it's out of our hands. It doesn't make a lot of difference to me, one way or another, I'd just be curious as to the rational behind it (one way or another). ^_^

[BasharOfTheAges]

I hardly think people not using it correctly is a reason to say no to the recommendation - subjectivity is what allows users to recommend complete crap in any thread already.

To think of it on a more basic level, we already have action, dance, and effects videos recommendations, why not have the element that is widely mis-attributed to be the antithesis of those things (videos with an actual story)?

Also, it's not like getting a thread in that forum is a big to-do, they offer threads for specific series for christ's sake. Anything more defined than that should be put up - it's not going to be used that much anyways, and it'll end up like every other rec thread - half full of fanboys with no taste spouting crap about vids that have already been on the list 4 times already and friends jerking each other off.

[JaddziaDax]

what about the fangirls?

[DriftRoot]

I hardly think people not using it correctly is a reason to say no to the recommendation - subjectivity is what allows users to recommend complete crap in any thread already.

It just seems to me that the current categories are pretty clear-cut for a reason. If if the reason is that no one's ever bothered suggesting dozens of other recommended categories not already covered by the current ones, then ok - fine. Let's recommend tons of other categories and see what happens. One reason I really like that forum is because it IS so structured; it's not a thread spam-fest. I tend to assume the powers that be keep control over what new threads can be posted because they don't want that forum devolving into a big mess full of people's ideas about what constitutes a type of video.

To think of it on a more basic level, we already have action, dance, and effects videos recommendations, why not have the element that is widely mis-attributed to be the antithesis of those things (videos with an actual story)?

That element can be found in those types of videos, which is - I'd say - what would move them into a cross-category genre. For instance, an intense action video with a strong storyline also counts as a drama video. In this case, finding an action video in the drama thread would likely mean it has some kind of storyline.

Also, it's not like getting a thread in that forum is a big to-do, they offer threads for specific series for christ's sake. Anything more defined than that should be put up - it's not going to be used that much anyways, and it'll end up like every other rec thread - half full of fanboys with no taste spouting crap about vids that have already been on the list 4 times already and friends jerking each other off.

So you went from saying a narrative category should be implemented because it is really worthwhile and important to saying it should be implemented because it's worthless and pointless anyways?

I think I covered all the reasons I feel a narrative category doesn't really fit with the existing format of that forum...if those reasons are inaccurate, then it would be helpful if someone who knows why categories like that aren't in the Rec. Forum says so, because this is all just conjecture. I'm not trying to dictate how the forum should be set up, I'm just analyzing what's currently there and stating what I see. If a "narrative" category were there, then that would alter the equation and my conclusion probably would be that someone asked for a narrative category and the admins decided it wasn't against the format of that forum and let it in. To me, this would advertise that they're open to categorizing videos in ways that aren't currently defined anywhere else on this site.

[BasharOfTheAges]

Also, it's not like getting a thread in that forum is a big to-do, they offer threads for specific series for christ's sake. Anything more defined than that should be put up - it's not going to be used that much anyways, and it'll end up like every other rec thread - half full of fanboys with no taste spouting crap about vids that have already been on the list 4 times already and friends jerking each other off.

So you went from saying a narrative category should be implemented because it is really worthwhile and important to saying it should be implemented because it's worthless and pointless anyways?

My pointless/worthless comments were about the way things are in the rec forum in general and my agreement that the thread would be a good idea is partly split between it being a good idea and the fact that getting a thread on there isn't something even worthy of debate. It's not the sacred cow you're making it out to be.

[pink haze]

This thread may be getting hard to follow, so I'll try to shorten my posts and just refute the best arguments that are put forth against my position--the others I leave to the onlookers' reasoning capacities.
Since I last posted, DriftRoot has made two posts--I will deal primarily with the first, which was his response to me (while the second was to BasharOfTheAges).
My position: I take the Rec thread seriously, and I think "a narrative category should be implemented because it is really worthwhile."
I'm here to defend that position, and since the last exchange between DriftRoot and BasharOfTheAges doesn't focus on that too much, I'll stay uninvolved for now.

That said, on to the first of your two most recent posts, DriftRoot:
This is what I think the main point of your post was, and the best argument against my position:

The Narrative category should not be included in the Rec thread because it isn't clear-cut enough. People will disagree over whether or not a video is a Narrative video.

This would be a sound argument if we were talking about the average Narrative video. But we are not. We are talking about videos that would make it into the Rec forum. We are talking about the very best Narrative videos. If a video is so good at what it does--which is tell a story--that it can be considered the best in the Narrative field, then people won't be wondering if there's a story there or not.
They might not agree about whether or not it is a great story, but how good the story is doesn't matter. What matters is only how well the story is executed. I happen to dislike the story, "Romeo and Juliet" (because I oppose what the themes say about life), but I do not deny that it is particularly well-written.

[guy07]

No.