State of the Viewers Choice Awards

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Kireblue
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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Kireblue » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:14 pm

denisse791 wrote:My English is bad, sorry
I am a follower of the a-m-v.org for some time now and I am new creating videos
My opinion is that this year the VCA 2018 awards are normal and in the course of this year 2018 will be discussed on this theme for next year
It seems very sudden to me to make such a radical decision in such a short time and just before the VCA 2018 begins.

you're not wrong. This definitely is a radical decision, and I wish that I had thought of it sooner. But I do feel that it's necessary to reverse the downward trend in terms of VCA participation. And so I'd rather do it sooner than later (especially since later would be a whole year away). The worst that can happen is that we fail this year and learn from our mistakes to make next year better. I don't really think that a extra year of planning will make much difference.

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seasons wrote:
Cenit wrote:I haven't read all of these walls of text. So what i'm writing has probably been said before. I think you should try to keep the VCA alive. I won't trust a pre-selection by judges though. This is why the JCA's never worked.

What were the JCA's?


Judges Choice Awards, and I agree with Cenit. Every year they had issues. I even offered to run it one year, did a lot of legwork setting it up, and some people so hated how I did it that I actually just quit and said someone else should do it. That was one of my worst moments in the community, and I know that similar things have happened with the JCAs every year it was tried. No matter who ran it, or how it was structured, lots of people got angry, offended, and downright personally hostile. There are contests I've wanted to run (most notably my Generation Clash tag team video competition), BUT my experiences with the JCAs really soured me on it.

If you're interested in learning what the JCAs were, here is the thread from the last year it was ran (2011) viewtopic.php?f=5&t=107770&hilit=jca

Personally, I feel that the JCAs failed because it was running concurrent with the VCAs and split the community focus, required a greater commitment from the Judges, and didn't really have a lot of community participation despite having a lot of interest). And so although similar, I do believe that the idea we have for the VCAs will be more successful

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby shavedog » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:01 am

Been an avid follower of the VCA's almost since they started and still to this day look forward to them as much as anything every year so let's please keep them around at all costs! The worst thing that can happen is ideas to become fractured and things to be stalled because of disagreements going forward. So my vote is to try and come up with a way to continue on with implementing as many ideas to make people happy. I personally agree that changes from the old format need to be made the keep VCA's relevant. Opening it up to videos and voters outside of the .org would be awesome. Again it would mean more hassle but I think we already had so much of that in opinions amassed over what the best videos are that end up in the contest vs. best videos out there overall. I think that gap continues to widen each contest. I know I also feel bogged down with doing so much voting plus how the nomination process works. I just love getting to the finals. I think having a panel of judges be able to get us to the final vote would eliminate a lot of tediousness...and as long as we get a good mix of judges who knowledgeable on ALL the AMV's that were made in a particular year this would help eliminate AMV's going between the cracks. I tend to almost vote for a process similar to what is done for the Oscars where the judges would have to ability to get any videos in the category finals that deserve it regardless of a preset number. So in this way when fans get to vote for the finals they will have the most possible "best of" deserving videos to choose from. Lets tweak as much as possible to make the VCA's as exciting and worthwhile as they used to be, even if it means totally changing the ways they are done!

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby spoondiddly » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:56 pm

Preview pics and/or videos is a really nice addition.
Can't name how many times I've gotten confused when videos with really similar names or multiples from the same editor are in a list, and have to click around to see which ones they were again. A picture's worth a thousand words and all that. Also handy to directly see all the ones you've never heard of in one place. Simplifies voting quite a bit.

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby seasons » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:53 pm

I have not been able to take the time to write a fitting post that would articulate my thoughts on this in a helpful manner BUT I just want to get this in while I have a moment right now.

If it’s determined that there’s no time to implement any big changes to the VCAs for this year’s nominations/voting/awards, then we should look forward to getting that ready for next year and still continue with the status quo for now.

What I mean is please, please don’t cancel the VCAs for this year just because they’re not going as well as we’d like.

Good AMVs will still be acknowledged and that’s a good thing. A lot of viewers/fans will still participate, and that’s a good thing. It is not what it used to be and not what it could be but killing it off for a year would be a mistake (a possibility that may or may not be under consideration right now but I’d like to head off any serious discussion of that before it gains momentum).

If we don’t have the VCAs this year, they probably won’t come back ever again. Time and time again, that’s how these things go.

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Kionon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:26 pm

seasons wrote:What I mean is please, please don’t cancel the VCAs for this year just because they’re not going as well as we’d like...
If we don’t have the VCAs this year, they probably won’t come back ever again. Time and time again, that’s how these things go.


I certainly concur with this, and I wasn't of the opinion we should cancel the VCAs. Can't speak for the rest of the Admin/Mod team, but I would counsel strongly against canceling the VCAs, however it is they end up running. If that means 2018 is status quo, and 2019 is a new system, so be it.
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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Kireblue » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:25 pm

Based on the feedback I've received so far, I don't have any plans on canceling the VCAs this year. I've spent the last week contacting potential judges for this, and so I think that we're almost ready to move forward with the new system if that's what people want.

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby SSJDAVID » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:45 pm

Kireblue wrote:Based on the feedback I've received so far, I don't have any plans on canceling the VCAs this year. I've spent the last week contacting potential judges for this, and so I think that we're almost ready to move forward with the new system if that's what people want.

Very excited for this! I look forward to it every year

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Mirage_GSM » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:53 pm

Long-time member, first-time poster on the forum. Hajimemashite!
Let me just say that I would be sad to see the VCA go away. I've always been looking forward to the contest to help me find some good new videos since I don't really follow new releases for most of the rest of the year.
I don't really mind if the voting process is changed up a bit if you think it would help participation, but please consider if Crunchyroll is really what you want to copy here - or WHICH parts of CR's concept you want to copy.
The Crunchyroll is heavily biased towards shows that run there, because only members can vote, and when two out of six finalists in several categories come from the same show then something is wrong with the nomination process as well.
Whatever you decide to do and whatever form it is going to take I'll be looking forward to the VCA 2018!

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Donaithnen » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:53 am

MadMegatax wrote:An alternative to the Crunchyroll format is the way that r/anime on reddit is doing awards. From what I understand, they have popular vote determine three entries for a category, and then a panel of judges selects three additional entries for the category. So half are by popular vote, and half are jury selected. Then voting happens like you suggested.


I actually quite like this idea! There are definite downsides to both Judge based award panels and popular nominations, and this seems like a good comprise to me.

If you're still going to do both the semi-finals and finals round the judges could pick 10 videos for the semi-finals and then the popular nominations list could be consulted, starting from the top down. If a video is already on the judges' list it should get flagged (for the sake of transparency it will be important to indicate if a nomination was a judges' choice or a popular choice or both) and if not it's added to the list, until you have 20 total vids. (Or with the numbers adjusted for whatever the desired final total is.)

And as long as things are getting revised, i would also like to see a change in the voting method for the finals round. Instant-Runoff would be preferred, but i think even affirmative voting would be better than the current first-past-the-post method.

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Cenit » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:53 am

I'm against this judges based system as well as not being able to enter your own AMVs. It will only further improve the circle jerk. RIP
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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Kireblue » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:09 pm

Cenit wrote:I'm against this judges based system as well as not being able to enter your own AMVs. It will only further improve the circle jerk. RIP

By "enter your own AMVs", do you mean nominate videos that you've made? Or do you mean nominate videos in general? If you mean to generally add videos, you're able to do so by simply posting them in the nomination threads here: viewforum.php?f=138 . Every video that is posted in those threads will be added to the voting pool for round one. Then you'll be able to vote to advance them to the following rounds. The purpose of the judges isn't to take away the ability for you to add videos. Instead, they simply add videos to the round 2 voting pool in addition to the ones voted on by the community.

If you mean adding the videos that you've personally made, you can post them in the Shameless Self Promotion thread. Videos posted in this thread won't be immediately added to the round 1 voting pool, but everyone will be able to see them, and have the ability to cross post them in the appropriate category nomination threads. Also, the judges will be able to reference the videos posted in the Self Promotion thread when deciding on what they'd like to add to the voting pool.

If you'd like a more detailed summary of the changes that we've made this year, here is the 2018 VCA Updates, Questions & Feedback Thread.

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Cenit » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:57 pm

I mean specifically that i now have to wait for someone to suggest all my AMV in EVERY category they could possibly compete and then hope that your judges approve of them. Until now every AMV of the year could compete for the veiwers affection in almost every category by default. The org forum is dead like almost all forums. In the last year there were maybe 10 people active in these threads. In MEP last year it was MAYBE 2. So if they all return there's about 10 people suggesting AMVs, eight of them studio members of pixel blended. How did you not think about this? How is this even a Viewers Choice award? This is the worst possible scenario you could have chosen. I have no idea why Phade handed the Org to you. If you want to improve/save the VCAs have it so that all videos can be voted for. There is no value in this new award system and you will fail hard!
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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Kireblue » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:31 pm

You brought up a number of different points, and so I'll respond the them individually
Cenit wrote:I mean specifically that i now have to wait for someone to suggest all my AMV in EVERY category they could possibly compete and then hope that your judges approve of them.

If anyone suggests any of your video, they are automatically added to the round 1 pool. The judges aren't denying videos as long as they were made in the right time span 01/01/17- 12/31/17.
Cenit wrote:Until now every AMV of the year could compete for the veiwers affection in almost every category by default.

That statement is technically correct, but it does leave out the fact that only videos cataloged on the org were allowed to compete. I believe that part of the reason why a number of people started loosing interest in the VCAs is because they felt that the Org's catalog wasn't a adequate representation of the vast number of videos that are made every year. Some of the best videos often times never got cataloged and were never eligible to be voted on at all. And so I thought up this new system as a means to be more inclusive to those videos and try to restore the notion that the VCAs are a credible representation of the best AMVs from the previous year.
Cenit wrote:In the last year there were maybe 10 people active in these threads. In MEP last year it was MAYBE 2. So if they all return there's about 10 people suggesting AMVs, eight of them studio members of pixel blended.

I don't think you actually know who the members of PixelBlended Studios are. For reference, there are 10 members in the studio, and only only 2 of us actually posted in any of the nomination threads last year. If you don't believe me, you can see for yourself here viewforum.php?f=132 .
Cenit wrote:The org forum is dead like almost all forums. In the last year there were maybe 10 people active in these threads. In MEP last year it was MAYBE 2. So if they all return there's about 10 people suggesting AMVs. How did you not think about this? How is this even a Viewers Choice award? This is the worst possible scenario you could have chosen. If you want to improve/save the VCAs have it so that all videos can be voted for. There is no value in this new award system and you will fail hard!

I did think about all of that. In fact, that's actually one of the main reasons why i felt that a pool of well knowledgeable judges was necessary. My hope is that since the nomination process actually affects the first round of voting, it will serve as an incentive for more people to post in the threads than previous years. I see that you didn't post anything in the forum nomination threads last year (even with the old system), and so if you'd like the VCAs to continue, then I encourage you to actually participate in them. Whether the forum nominations work or not, we'll just have to see. But if they don't, then the role of the judges will be to supplement the voting pool list with videos that they feel deserve a place in the semifinals. And again, all of this is for the purpose of making the VCAs more inclusive. With the old voting system, it simply wasn't possible to modify it so that non cataloged videos could compete.
Cenit wrote:I have no idea why Phade handed the Org to you.

I haven't spoken to Phade in a really long time. And so he hasn't actually handed anything to me. And from what I can tell, he wasn't involved in the decision to make me a admin either. So there's that.... But regardless, I try my best to do anything and everything that I can for the org. If I told you how much time I spend every single day maintaining the site, I'm sure that you wouldn't believe me, or you'd think that I was exaggerating. I can hardly believe it myself.

But if you feel that the decisions that I've made aren't for the benefit of the site, then i encourage you to make suggestions of your own or offer to help out. When I started the AMV Monthly Newsletter last year, my main goal was to get more members engaged and interested in helping the community. But unfortunately, not a lot of people showed interest in helping maintain them, and so I had to put that project on hold. But if you're interested in helping out with that, then maybe we can start it up again.

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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby GloryQuestor » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:32 pm

Cenit wrote:The org forum is dead like almost all forums. ... I have no idea why Phade handed the Org to you.


I thought I should comment on this in a broad sense, as well, even though this is going to get a bit OT. First, I am still the one in charge of the Org in Phade's stead. As the person in charge, I did approach kireblue (and others) and asked if they would help us out, which they agreed to.

I keep hearing the "forums are dead" issue over and over, when in fact, we have others who have actually thanked us for still having a forum. The forum still serves as an "archive" of various types, from video techniques to anime & music discussions going back a very long time. Many conventions have given up on forums, and as you can see, contest coordinators have not stopped using the forums as a hub to reach out to AMV creators of all types and to keep a more "permanent" record of their contest results.

The continuance of the forums is not really a sign of stagnation, as we actually changed steadily in key places over a long while now. For many years after this site started, there was no web-based uploading option, previews, star system ... heck, we did not even have "quick comments" until the need was there. The Org has also embraced social media, even though Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and other types of social media are largely fire-and-forget, with information that could be consumed and lost at any time outside of our control. Going back OT, the new VCA structure is simply another in a long line of new steps, a work-in-progress meant to reach out and include a larger community of creators out there, centralizing them yet again.

The Org remains here because we do change and grow as times grow, and we do have a lot of people who still believe in us and support us. We do not aim to please everyone all the time, but we are still here for the creators, the contestants, and the fans old and new.
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Re: State of the Viewers Choice Awards

Postby Cenit » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:20 am

GloryQuestor wrote:I keep hearing the "forums are dead" issue over and over, when in fact, we have others who have actually thanked us for still having a forum.


It’s super awesome that Kionon at some point thanked you that the forum is still around but he and your other mods are basically the only "community" left. You’re ignoring the core issues:

You’re forcing people to use a forum they don’t like to nominate videos of their friends. You’re taking away the one reason I still upload to the Org, i.e. all my AMVs can auto participate in the VCA. You require each AMV to be nominated in each category instead of one nomination unlocking all possible categories. Last year some AMVs were in the finals of about 12-13 categories. There would have to be about 100 people actively nominating AMVs to consider all possibilities. But these forums are used by maybe 10. Nominations have always been the weakest phase of the VCAs every year. Whenever there was drama as to why video X wasn’t in the finals it could be traced back to nominations phase missing participation from enough people. Activity is at an all-time low. So now you’re fixing the nominations by forcing forum participation, removing all valid Org uploads and having judges do pre-selections.

It’s pretty clear that these are not the VCAs as we know it. It’s not even a viewers choice award to begin with. It’s the Staff Choice Awards. Or maybe the PixelBlended awards. It has as much value as the Souls Team IC results. I told you before that judges is a bad idea. But you decided to push your whacky JCAs unchanged regardless of any valid criticism. You can still do changes though. Open up the system so that all catalog entries created in 2017 can participate in the voting.

GloryQuestor wrote:The Org remains here because we do change and grow as times grow, and we do have a lot of people who still believe in us and support us.


The Org is dead and you killed it. As a former donator and strong supporter of the project i blame you directly. You lack leadership and vision. Phade did a subpar job after 2005, especially in regards to opening up the Org to YouTube. But making you lead admin was his worst decision by far.
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