It's been about 2 weeks since I made the initial post on this, so I think that it's about time I started responding to some of the points that were made.
hamstar138 wrote:Honest I feel if you open it up to just a few collective shows it doesn't count as fair but you should open it up to all western shows then. There are a number of shows that were made with the contribution of Japanese anime studios (such as Toei working to draw for shows like Muppet Babies and such.) I realize the list is just shows off the top of your head, but i feel there isn't even a need to list shows, because once again if we open up to a few, we might as well open it up to all.
Xophilarus wrote:AI fall under the camp where I believe if you want to extend it to some western animations, you should do it to all of them. I understand how you want to use a different definition, but I feel like it is still too lose to really feel fair for a lot of people, especially since countries now just borrow so much from each other in terms how animation. So I basically believe it should be open to either all animations or just keep it as is. I do believe it would be amazing to incorporate non-anime animations because the editing of the two is still really similar and it allows editors to feel like they can branch out more. I know some have expressed concerns over copyright, but honestly I feel like it is already more "risky" with the Japanese companies since fair use doesn't exist there as well as record labels since a lot of them are big punks about their music. I also do believe the idea of making a distinction between the two is really good as well so if someone just wants to watch anime AMVs, it is easy for them to still find them without having to go through a lot of other animations.
As far as AMV contests go, I feel like it should be up the contest coordinator and the con coordinator, and I think it would be a nice thing, but I also don't think they should really be pushed to do that either since I know some have concerns that it would upset their audiences.
FoxJones wrote:Purist me from some 10 years ago would have said "Absolutely not, this is heresy"
Today's me (Who is a huge RWBY fan) is quite ok with this. Like it is implied here, the geographical borders have started to lose their meaning, when discussion goes to what is anime and what is not.
I think this path still needs to be tread carefully and in small strides, but if there's a clear distinction between these and it is clearly shown, I wouldn't have complaints. This way viewers can easily ignore the sources they find uninteresting.
I don't completely agree that we need to open the flood gates and allow everything for any type of expansion to work. In fact, allowing everything actually makes the transition process 1000 times harder (that's technically not even an exaggeration). The anime database works by users submitting shows or titles to be confirmed as a “anime” or “non anime” source. Because of this, the database is constantly growing, already consists of thousands of upon thousands of entries, and includes Japanese anime, American cartoons, live action movies, and even filmed and self recordings. Since a prerequisite for a video to be uploaded to the site is having a confirmed anime source listed, we've done our best to keep the anime list as organized and consistent as possible. But on the other hand, the confirmed non anime list is an absolute mess with little to no consistency and a completely unknown amount of errors and redundancies. The task of going through that list, confirming all the animation entries, removing everything else, and then giving them some level of consistency would take me forever. It took me almost an entire year just to go through and confirm the backlog of anime entries that had piled up before I became a admin.
So with this in mind, I think that FoxJones represented my sentiments the best when he said that we'd have to take this in small strides. Picking out about 20 or so shows to add to the anime list is easy. But filtering out every single animation entry in a timely manner is borderline impossible.
PieandBeer wrote:Honestly, I think the upload feature on this site is becoming a bit obsolete. Most people just upload to Youtube and leave a link for the full version because they either do not want to go through the upload process again or the file size is too big. People are watching amvs first on youtube, not discovering them on the org, and it's easier to just drop a link to like gdrive or another service than it is to make people sign up/log in to the org. I still think the catalog function is essential, in case of youtube making our lives hell, but really just to get links to other services.
Ileia wrote:• Will it present any new legal issues?
I don't proclaim to be an expert on the subject, but I know that there's a reason why we tend to get away with using Japanese anime vs some other sources. And it's the same reason why many AMV Contests won't accept entries that aren't Japanese animation. We want to share videos, but we also don't want C&D orders.
CrackTheSky wrote:100% no. Have you people even considered the legal implications? Like Ileia, I'm far from an expert, but this seems to be a one-track road to getting the site shut down for good. This site is lucky to have existed as long as it has. Honestly, it will probably stay around for a lot longer if nothing changes as far as upload content is concerned. Once you open the door to Western animation, you're opening it to all sorts of scrutiny from entities that otherwise don't give a crap what happens here.
No. No no no. This is a bad idea and I don't support it. Let those videos stay on YouTube so Google's legal department can deal with the copyright issues. We have an announcement forum for non-anime videos, can someone explain what there is to be gained by allowing cataloging of these videos and uploading them to our database? .
seasons wrote:In the interests of keeping this community alive, I'm open to the idea of doing something like this, especially considering how often these kind of works are being purged from the database and well-meaning newcomers are getting their early efforts booted from the announcements thread, I feel like this site needs to find a way to be more inclusive these days if it still wants to be around and seeing any kind of daily activity in another year or two.
My openness to doing this doesn't have anything to do with changing our definition of what we think "anime" is, although I can see how it produces the same end result.
If we have concerns about copyright matters, then videos tagged with these kind of sources could be allowed to be cataloged but automatically be blocked from being uploaded. Obviously, users could circumvent this by simply not listing said sources in their video entry, but dishonesty in this process has probably always been against the rules (?) and if this hasn't been a big problem in the past, it probably won't be in any scenario going forward.
Pie makes a good point. More and more people are choosing to not use the org's local server, and instead use their own google dive accounts to host their videos. And so I think I stand with Season's suggestion to allow the videos to be cataloged, but restrict them from being uploaded to the actual org server. This will make us less of a legal target, and still provide a place for Avatar and RWBY editors to catalog and share their works.
Ileia wrote:• Phade's opinion?
Though I do like the "we the people" option, it's ultimately the site owner that this would come down on if it went south. He may not be as active within the community as previously, but it's still his site and he may also still want it kept up a certain way. Before you go down that road, you'd need to know his take on it/his permission. Where does that currently stand?
CrackTheSky wrote:Also, this should be Phade's decision, absolutely, and if he's silent on it, nothing should change. As the site owner Phade would have to bear the responsibility of any legal repercussions, and thus something like this should 100% be his decision, and no one else's.
Phade doesn't visit the site very often anymore. And when he does, it's usually for the span of a few days, and then he leaves again. Nothing against him though. He's understandably busy and has switched focuses in his life. But with that being said, starting the discussion off with him would probably end up with him needing to formulate his opinion fairly quickly and then going back to his own life before all of you would have a chance to comment. I started this thread to just open the floor to conversation, and then present the argument to Phade so that he can make a decision.